An open letter from Nightforce Optics regarding Competition model

[Kings X]

I do thank NF and all the other US team supports. Without your helpmour teams would surely suffer.
--
I am a "first hand guy". I told Jim my scope failed. A few weeks prior to the Nationals I shot in the RMP matches at Raton to learn about the "conditions". I had some wild shots. I call them wild because I was the only one on line that had the very high shots. - Bad shooter you say - I won one day overall. I spent time on the Raton range working up a new load. Thinking that could be the cause.
Same flyers in the SFR the next weekend.
So I restocking the rifle before the Nationals.
Three days into the Nationals - The high 8s becomes a high 6. AGAIN I am the only one on line with these high shots. After the team match I change rings to a set of Burris Sperical rings.
The last day of the Nationals I get two very wide left shots - me only again - and I did not see that much of a "pick-up". I wait a few minutes and shoot a 10 - same hold as before. Next shot a miss - no condition change. Next shot a 5 just hanging the top edge. Last three shots - right on call with the last being an X.
Well something needs to change. I have changes loads, stocks and rings. Time to replace Comp scope with just rebuilt BR.
Wild shots go away during the World's practice and the individuals. Now I am no scope manufacture or scope engineer. Just a shooter with over 35 years of experence shooting scopes at long range. When i change out a piece of equipment and the problem goes away - the piece I took out was the problem. Is that to simple to understand? Don't you do the same thing?
I will never know what the NF service department would find with my scope. I was so mad that I sold it at a garage sale price before I left Raton. I had put all my trust in a product just the same as the US Team would be using, I am not a rich man. I had to sell two of my favorite rifle to get the money for that top notch piece of equipment . I made the 10 drive to Raton for testing TWICE before the Nationals. I had a lot of hopes for placing well at the matches.
I have heard rumors of "bad" scopes from ALL manufactures since I got into this game 9 or 10 years ago. No one intends to make a bad product. It happens. Put your big girl panties on and live with it.
I AM NOT ANTI NIGHTFORCE. I put my trust in a piece of equipment and I BELIEVE it let me down. I loved all the features about the scope. I had the odd reticule and no problem with the eye relief. I was a GREAT scope. Nightforce would have tested my scope. THEY WILL STAND BEHIND THEIR PRODUCT. They are a very up-standing company. We all should be thankful for the dedication to the sport.
If you want to believe it was "conditions" - that is your choice.
--
Jim - I am sorry I got you into this. I was "hot" because the scope failed. I did not lie when I told you that I talked to two other "name" shooters that changed scopes to make their problems go away. Those two and mine are the only three that I know as possibles . Rumors are just that - until they happen to you, Then it becomes a FACT.

 

[snakepit]

Just curious but was there any problems with the NF Competition model scope prior to the National/World Championships. I would think that with all the practice that numerous competitors did for this meet and many likely using this scope that some of the issues that people are concerned with would have been apparent during testing or previous matches.

 

[johara1]

I did state what was wrong with the scope, and you can not shoot long range when you can not see the hit. The slightest head or rifle movement it will go black, makes it all but impossible to see the hit on a clay bird at 1K. If we are using pull targets and have spotters it may be a different story. Seeing bullet holes at 400 meters? and can't see them with a 42power BR? give me a break....... you must have a bad one.
Do you think the winning F class team that used the 15-55 was a off the shelf ones? 10 min.per rev.? also did Sean and his staff have any of these complaints at the Match? All scope companies have problems but some never admit to it,you send it and they go over it and didn't find a problem but it works when you put it back on. I see this thread as a spring board to making this scope better,and i'm sure they know they have a problem or two and can i hope rectify them to make them more useable for everybody. What i can't understand is why they quit making a bullet proof scope that only had one problem, weight. The best part was they keep the longer and heaver and short eye relief but cheaper BR model.......James O'Hara

 

[Raythemanroe]

James O'Hara, I would keep all the models!

 

[KT]

So far what I’ve heard is that there are rumors that there are problems with the Completion scope at Raton, but no one has contacted NF. There were NF reps at Raton and no one with a problem talked to them. On the other hand people at Raton have stated that there were conditions at Raton no one could explain.

I own the new NF scope and for the life of me I can’t figure out the short eye relief problem. I have the scope mounted on my .284 and I’m able to see the bullet hit the berm. I can’t tell a difference in eye relief between my COMP, NXS, or BR.

If you own the scope and there is ever any question about the performance coming up less than advertised, you are doing yourself and others a disservice by not contacting NF. For someone to have a perceived problem and not follow through with a service call from the mfg. is only possibly and knowingly selling the next owner short.

I understand that having confidence in your equipment is paramount. But you must eliminate all variables. I know from experience that conditions are an immeasurable variable.

KT

 

[Erik Cortina]

KT, mount your competition NF on a heavy recoiling rifle and you will notice/feel the short eye relief.

 

[Ray Gross]

I'll throw in a few anecdotes of my own, for what they are worth. I have a fair amount of experience with my NF Competition scope and a limited amount with four others as a coach. With regard to the limited amount, We spent an hour or so the morning of the FCWC practice day marrying all the team scopes to my zero. During the two days of the team match, I made somewhere between a single initial adjustment to three or four adjustments during some of the strings. I don't recall any single adjustment of more than 4 moa total. During the practice and two days of shooting, I did not detect any issues with any of the NF Competition scopes.

Naturally, I have a great deal more experience with mine. After a few weeks of using it and getting zeroes, I decided to run an elaborate box test to satisfy myself that the scope was repeatable. Attached are the result of the tests. All the shooting was done at 100 yards. I started with a 300 yard zero and fired 3 shots.Then proceeded to fire 3 shot groups at the following spots: 300y/12moa R, 800y/12moa R, 800 y/center, 600 y/center, 600y/12moa L, 1000y/12moa L, 1000y/12moa R, 900y/12moa R, 900y/center, then back to 300y/center.

The second picture shows the two 300y groups. the first group, shots 4,5 & 6 forms a dogleg. The second group, shots 34, 35 & 36 form a nice cloverleaf around the center shot (5) of the first group. I don't think you can ask much more from a scope than that result. During the subsequent practicing, match competitions, Nationals and the Worlds, I have not had any reason to question my NF Competition scope.

Ray Gross
Coach, Team Sinclair
Coach, US F/TR Team

 

[johara1]

The eye relief is short,3 1/8 and very critical,move in or out on it just disappears, not as forgiving or as long as a NXS. Bench rest is more about accuracy, trying to shoot small and in the center a 1/2 min. or even a 1/4 min. gun won't get it. Speed is needed some times and seeing the hit on a clay bird is so important and where it hit on the clay bird. These are two different disciplines but everybody wants to shoot it the center but when you use free recoil this scope is useless. If you hold the gun you guys say it's fine but the NXS and the BR will work for both but the 15-55 won't, I have no idea what they changed to make it this way or why the power is less than advertised on the comp.model or the NXS is under rated........ jim

 

[Mark Walker in TX]

The eye relief is short,3 1/8 and very critical,move in or out on it just disappears, not as forgiving or as long as a NXS. Bench rest is more about accuracy, trying to shoot small and in the center a 1/2 min. or even a 1/4 min. gun won't get it. Speed is needed some times and seeing the hit on a clay bird is so important and where it hit on the clay bird. These are two different disciplines but everybody wants to shoot it the center but when you use free recoil this scope is useless. If you hold the gun you guys say it's fine but the NXS and the BR will work for both but the 15-55 won't, I have no idea what they changed to make it this way or why the power is less than advertised on the comp.model or the NXS is under rated........ jim

Hey Jim,

Let me take a run at this as best I can, in very non-technical terms.

What you are describing is not really a problem with the scope, as much as it is a design constraint due to the specs of the scope. There are two things in play in how a scope appears when you are behind it, eye-relief and exit pupil. Eye-relief is how far back you have to be to have a full field of view, and the exit pupil is how big the range of movement you have and retain the full field of view. Smaller exit pupil = less room to move and retain field of view.

The exit pupil seems to be your biggest issue. However, exit pupil is really a function of the magnification of the scope, combined with the objective size, and maybe the tube diameter (I am not certain on the tube diameter having an impact, though). The exit pupil will be reduced as the magnification increases and if the objective remains constant.

May people see a smaller exit pupil as an advantage as it forces them to be more consistent with their head/eye placment on the rifle. So, just keep in mind, it's not necesssarily a problem, its just different, and dependant upon the specs of the scope.

You can look at these specs as published by NF and compare across all three scopes. For reference, also look across the March line and you will see the very same correlation if you compare a 10-60 vs a 5-50. Bigger objective and less magnification = bigger exit pupil.

With the NF Comp, for you, its a bit of a perfect storm. Smaller obj than other NF, and higher magnification = smaller exit pupil and less eye releif.

Maybe that helps?

 

[aj300mag]

Ray, how did that reticle work out for you?

Al

 

[4xforfun]

As far as the eye relief thing. Whys is that important? I have had some sucsess in LR BR, and I have NEVER used the whole field of view on my scope. My head is so far back behind the scope that all I see is a dime sized exit puple with the crosshair or dot covering the x ring. That's it...the other 90% of the occular lense appears black. This serves three purposes.

1) I know that my head is absolutly centerd in the scope..it has to be, or I would see NOTHING. Pralex is far less of a concern for me because my head is in the same place every time.

2) When the gun recoils, the gun slides back to a point to where I have a FULL field of view....I can now see the impacts on the berm because i am now using the full field of view.

3) I started this sport shooting a 17 lb 300 WBY and a break was not allowed in the HG class. I had only one gun, and HATED getting whacked by the scope during recil.

IMO, the eye relief thing isn't a "problem with the scope" as much as it is a design issue.

Just my .02...hope it helps with those who have already taken the plunge with the hew NF comp. Try it some time...it works.

Tod

 

[lperry63]

Naturally, I have a great deal more experience with mine. After a few weeks of using it and getting zeroes, I decided to run an elaborate box test to satisfy myself that the scope was repeatable. Attached are the result of the tests. All the shooting was done at 100 yards. I started with a 300 yard zero and fired 3 shots.Then proceeded to fire 3 shot groups at the following spots: 300y/12moa R, 800y/12moa R, 800 y/center, 600 y/center, 600y/12moa L, 1000y/12moa L, 1000y/12moa R, 900y/12moa R, 900y/center, then back to 300y/center.

Ray - It's funny, but I did a very similar test a few months ago when I questioned the adjustments on a new March scope I had just used for the first time. I ran similar extended box tests with the March and my old NXS. What I found was that the NXS moved a very consistent amount (albeit a bit less than 5" @100yds for a 5 moa adjustment) whether left, right, up or down while the March seemed to have more variation in my tests. After exchanging emails with Jim Kelbly, I sent the March to Deon in Japan to be checked. They verified that on their test setup that a 5 moa adjustment left varied from 4 7/8 - 5" while a 5 moa adjustment right varied from 5 - 5 1/8". I can't remember the results of the up and down adjustments. Anyway, they said it was within spec, but they serviced it anyway and sent it back. I haven't tried it since then. I haven't run these tests on my NF Competition scopes, but I probably will when I get some down time over the winter.

One note about sending a March scope to Deon in Japan for servicing - Deon requires you to list a value that is approximately half the actual retail price of the 80 power March scope. They also specify shipping via USPS Express Mail. You can't insure it for the retail cost since you have to list the value specified by Deon. I guess you're SOL if it gets lost and you have to file an insurance claim. You'd never be able to replace it for half its original cost.

As far as NF Comp eye relief, I did have to mount the new scope further forward on my rifle than the NXS or March 80. Once it was moved forward, I didn't have any issues with sight picture.

Laura

 

[Davemc]

Hi Jim, It is funny you should say that about the eye relief because my first impression was completely the opposite. In fact, like Laura I had to move the mounts significantly further forward due to this and the slightly longer eyepiece bell. I will see if I can find the specs and come back on this as the scope is still in transit back here. The other big plus I thought for this scope was the optics. Not only are they bright with great colour and little chromatic aberration (thanks to the HD/fluorite) but also they resolve detail better than previous NF models. This is not only due to the HD but must be better optical design or lens quality. My only gripes are the same as everyones. More reticle choices please and if they could possibly get 10 minute*1/8 turrets then I would be happy. From a coaches point of view these are imperative but most shooters would agree.

 

[Davemc]

Sorry just checked and according to the specs eye relief (80-90mm) lies between the BR (75mm) and the NXS (98mm). But seems like a noticeable step up from the BR (and certainly the S&B!) and quite comfortable and forgiving.

 

[johara1]

Eye relief on the 15-55 is 3 1/8, eye relief on a NXS is 4" end of story, but the problem is short length you have to see a full view. The NXS at full view and can back away 2" and still see light but with the 15-55 you go back or in a little it goes black. As far as the mounts and where they are on the scope doesn't mean a thing, we are talking from the end of the scope to your and it is a little longer than a BR model, but not even close to a NXS.
Mark, if you turn the power down the eye relief doesn't change that much, but for me the problem is the very short box to see the full view and it doesn't taper away it just goes black. we checked three of them here and all were the same.I have had 5 NF scopes first was a BR model,i kept getting hit in the eye a little but just enough to make you think about it. Next and still have the NXS's great scope, but same as the BR model weight is an issue but you don't get hit. Next was the 15-55 big advantage is the weight little shorter eye relief but longer than the BR. model but the short area to see out of sent it down the road after one match. I don't have time to mess around and try to adapt to a scope with a problem, i hoped it would have worked out but it didn't....... jim

 

[Davemc]

Ok Jim, I see your point now. Although not as critical for F class and shouldering the rifle as you pointed out - I can certainly follow through the trace. But add this to the other reasons of better reticle choice and 10 minute * 1/8 turrets, and side focus it is the best all rounder - yet axed???????