AMP vs Flame Group Sizes

[rijndael]

... it makes my gun happy and if my gun is happy, I’m happy

I'm the same way, but I want to know if my gun can be happier.

 

[Straightshooter1]

OK ... 41 posts in and unless I missed it, no test data.

I plan to buy a new Amp MK2 DB when they're available. I'll test it for myself.

The AMP research they've published on their website under Annealing Under The Microscope has a lot a great data. But they only compare their annealing to the non-annealed and Salt Bath Annealing. Their data makes a strong case for annealing over not annealing. . . even over Salt Bath Annealing. Instead of tackling Salt Bath Annealing, I wish they had done it with flame annealing. And maybe, just maybe, they didn't do so knowing that it'd be hard to make a case for any substantial difference the AMP brings to the table in terms of performance on paper. . .???

Having worked with various aircraft sheetmetal alloys, including brass, and now just work with rifle cartridges, I feel I have some idea what the test data might show if the testing is done on an equal basis. Like being sure to heat the brass to the same temperature as the AMP does, though likely for a different period of time to get to the same Vickers hardness numbers. I believe that can be done with flame annealing, but may not be as consistent. Even so, I'd think the variations would be close enough where results on paper would be hard to differentiate, if they could be at all. Those of us who do flame annealing actually use a somewhat wide range of temperatures in our annealing process. If I had the equipment to do this testing, I would have done it a long time ago . . . and published it here.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

So much for going into the project OBJECTIVELY.

what did i say that wasn't objective. when it comes to annealing, it's a fact that the amp has no variations such as flame temp or flame time to worry about.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Staying on the thread topic, the question was how AMP or Flame annealing affected group sizes not neck tension or shoulder bumping.
But just to add a few thoughts, I don’t anneal or not anneal for any of the reasons suggested by our good friend Braxton.
I follow a slightly different path. Perhaps a quote from a different source can explain it better. I hope he doesn’t mind.. if so I apologize ..

couldn't you just make up for the reduced hardness in the neck a tighter bushing? @Alex Wheeler

 

[shoot4fun]

what did i say that wasn't objective. when it comes to annealing, it's a fact that the amp has no variations such as flame temp or flame time to worry about.

Just because the AMP has NO FLAME does not mean it has no variations. They are just different variations.
I feel sure that the folks at AMP wouldn't tell you there is no possibility of variations in heat with their product. They have no idea about the electrical grid in your area nor the integrity of your own home's electrical.
So, no, I (and apparently others here) feel you are just beating your chest and trying to become a mouthpiece on YT and objectivity has nothing to do with your "test".

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Just because the AMP has NO FLAME does not mean it has no variations. They are just different variations.
I feel sure that the folks at AMP wouldn't tell you there is no possibility of variations in heat with their product. They have no idea about the electrical grid in your area nor the integrity of your own home's electrical.
So, no, I (and apparently others here) feel you are just beating your chest and trying to become a mouthpiece on YT and objectivity has nothing to do with your "test".

I didn't say there were no variations POSSIBLE with the amp, I just said there were significantly less variations to worry about compared to flame annealing, in my opinion anyways. I think many people would agree that the amp is the most consistent way to anneal brass to date.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I have no dog in this fight, nor looking to be any kind of mouthpiece for any company. I just like to share things I personally want to know and can maybe help a few others out in the process.

 

[Pete Wass]

why do we anneal? we anneal because we want to restore the brass to its state of original hardness from the factory.

why do we do want this? extend brass life, consistent springback (shoulder bump/neck tension) everytime, and consistent bullet seating forces. we want the brass to act the same before and after firing, everytime.

I think most people believe that keeping these factors consistent is conducive towards precision, therefore expect to achieve this through annealing.

How will annealing potentially show a difference on target? through keeping these factors (in which we can measure) consistently everytime. The flame isn't doing something else magical to the brass (that we cant measure) that makes it somehow change the way it makes a difference on the target.

This is why obtaining these measurements is the best way IMO to test annealing vs not annealing.

I have always believed Brass is a container for things that really matter in shooting. That said, for it to perform as a container well it must be consistent in it's condition. This is what annealing is all about. One can't simply swap brass to make groups grow small in the same way as they can with varying powder charges and seating depths so a container it is.

 

[Webster]

I like it! Maybe use 20 cases, 5 per and then you have 5 for foulers each session.

I also record some of my tests and put them on YouTube, makes them easy to share with friends. Test and upload away, saves others from doing so.

If you screw on a different barrel you would probably get different results. Everyone seems to think any test they do gives valid results. I just go by group size, real simple real results.

 

[Ccrider]

Annealing softens the brass and produces less grip? I get that annealing softens the brass. I always understood that it actually makes the brass more elastic.

How do you measure to conclude that more elastic brass has less grip?

Also, I have experienced where non annealed brass had less grip than annealed brass; so much less that I had to reduce bushing size on non annealed brass.

Not being argumentative. Just my experiences.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Annealing softens the brass and produces less grip? I get that annealing softens the brass. I always understood that it actually makes the brass more elastic.

How do you measure to conclude that more elastic brass has less grip?

Also, I have experienced where non annealed brass had less grip than annealed brass; so much less that I had to reduce bushing size on non annealed brass.

Not being argumentative. Just my experiences.

annealing makes the brass less elastic, it relieves the stored energy (hardness) which will reduce its tendency to springback.

Work hardened brass is very springy and will always want to move back relative to where it was resting, this will produce less neck tension if you use a bushing and more neck tension it you used a mandrel.

 

[Ccrider]

annealing makes the brass less elastic, it relieves the stored energy (hardness) which will reduce its tendency to springback.

Work hardened brass is very springy and will always want to move back relative to where it was resting, this will produce less neck tension if you use a bushing and more neck tension it you used a mandrel.

Not my experience.

 

[Ccrider]

This last part simply isn’t true.

I was thinking that. Thanks for saying it.

Numerous times when not annealing, I have gotten to the point to where the hardened brass would not even hold the bullet so I had to use smaller bushings.

 

[bozo699]

annealing makes the brass less elastic, it relieves the stored energy (hardness) which will reduce its tendency to springback.

Work hardened brass is very springy and will always want to move back relative to where it was resting, this will produce less neck tension if you use a bushing and more neck tension it you used a mandrel.

Braxton,
I’m no metallurgist but I know when my brass is under annealed, annealed or over annealed. I’m not trying to be argumentative with you either but by your own admission your not a accomplished shooter which would indicate your not a accomplishment reloader which also tells me you can’t do these kind of comparisons with any sort of accuracy for a end results in your tests. The answers and statements you’re making im guessing have came straight off the internet. I have been doing this a long time and there’s guys on this forum that’s wayyyyyy more accomplished than I am. You can’t do a definitive test with 20 rounds and a day or two at the range!… this will take experience and time jmho best of luck to ya
Wayne

 

[Ccrider]

I say test away and please share your results. Don’t be offended because someone questions or disagrees with you. Most of us are here to learn and share our successes and failures. Either way, with an open mind, you can learn through the process.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Braxton,
I’m no metallurgist but I know when my brass is under annealed, annealed or over annealed. I’m not trying to be argumentative with you either but by your own admission your not a accomplished shooter which would indicate your not a accomplishment reloader which also tells me you can’t do these kind of comparisons with any sort of accuracy for a end results in your tests. The answers and statements you’re making im guessing have came straight off the internet. I have been doing this a long time and there’s guys on this forum that’s wayyyyyy more accomplished than I am. You can’t do a definitive test with 20 rounds and a day or two at the range!… this will take experience and time jmho best of luck to ya
Wayne

thanks wayne, i promise that everything i do it is to the best of my ability and will be good honest info. this test won't be for a while yet, but when its done it will be good information for however one wants to view it. again, i have no dog in any sort of fight, i just love testing and sharing my findings and discussing this stuff, no sort of ill intentions.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

I say test away and please share your results. Don’t be offended because someone questions or disagrees with you. Most of us are here to learn and share our successes and failures. Either way, with an open mind, you can learn through the process.

i am all about keeping an open mind and constructive criticism, thats the only way to keep advancing. i wish the people on here knew me personally, because i promise i am only here with the best intentions for the sport. i will bend over backwards to help anyone out any way i can.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

I was thinking that. Thanks for saying it.

Numerous times when not annealing, I have gotten to the point to where the hardened brass would not even hold the bullet so I had to use smaller bushings.

This last part simply isn’t true.

please explain to me where I am incorrect.....

the reason why you had to use a smaller bushing to hold your bullet is because your work hardened brass is springing back the opposite direction of the bushing (like i said) and is producing the effect of using a larger bushing (less neck tension).

annealed brass will barely spring back (0-0.0005") and very work hardened brass will spring back (0.001-0.002"). you will need to use smaller bushings/larger mandrels at some point to overcome the elastic deformation/yield point of hardened brass compared to annealed.

 

[Ccrider]

please explain to me where I am incorrect.....

the reason why you had to use a smaller bushing to hold your bullet is because your work hardened brass is springing back the opposite direction of the bushing (like i said) and is producing the effect of using a larger bushing (less neck tension).

annealed brass will barely spring back (0-0.0005") and very work hardened brass will spring back (0.001-0.002"). you will need to use smaller bushings/larger mandrels at some point to overcome the elastic deformation/yield point of hardened brass compared to annealed.

My thought is that the harder the brass gets, the harder it is to size, so that when you move it in with a bushing or out with a mandrel, rather than springing back, it stays where it is.

So, when you size hardened brass with a neck bushing, and then insert the bullet, ie, a mandrel, the brass opens up to the size of the bullet with less neck tension or hold.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

couldn't you just make up for the reduced hardness in the neck a tighter bushing? @Alex Wheeler

View attachment 1547090

Not really.

 

[Straightshooter1]

annealing makes the brass less elastic, it relieves the stored energy (hardness) which will reduce its tendency to springback.

Work hardened brass is very springy and will always want to move back relative to where it was resting, this will produce less neck tension if you use a bushing and more neck tension it you used a mandrel.

Apparently, there's a misunderstanding as to to relationship for "elastic" to being "springy", huh?

"Hardened brass" resists movement and wants to retain its shape when force is applied to it and the term "springy" can mean how far the material can bend before it doesn't return to its original shape, which is what I hear you saying. Annealing makes the brass more "elastic", meaning it's less resistant to movement. Like, fully annealed brass has little resistance to movement and will be more like damp clay. What we try to achieve when annealing our brass is something in-between "hardened brass" and fully annealed brass. The main goal is for consistency in how the neck holds the bullet, but not so loose that the bullet will move in the magazine due to recoil or for any other reason before being fired.

Bottom line . . . our annealing process makes the brass more elastic and less "springy".

PS
A much more technical way of saying the same thing :
"The amount of stress required to produce a unit of strain is known as the elastic modulus (sometimes called Young's modulus). The elastic modulus is different for different metals. A high modulus means the material is stiff. Steel's modulus is roughly three times that of aluminum, and twice that of brass, for example.

Once you cross the yield point, you begin to add plastic strain to the elastic strain. The plastic portion will not spring back. It's permanent. The elastic portion, however, will still spring back even if you have crossed the yield point. Above the yield point, the relationship between stress and strain is no longer linear - the elastic modulus is no longer valid. After the yield point, it takes much less stress (and therefore holding force) to produce a unit of strain."