AMP vs Flame Group Sizes

[shoot4fun]

thats the beauty of the amp, any sort of variables with flame temp or flame time is significantly reduced, or entirely eliminated.

So much for going into the project OBJECTIVELY.

 

[rijndael]

OK ... 41 posts in and unless I missed it, no test data.

I plan to buy a new Amp MK2 DB when they're available. I'll test it for myself.

 

[shoot4fun]

Staying on the thread topic, the question was how AMP or Flame annealing affected group sizes not neck tension or shoulder bumping.
But just to add a few thoughts, I don’t anneal or not anneal for any of the reasons suggested by our good friend Braxton.
I follow a slightly different path. Perhaps a quote from a different source can explain it better. I hope he doesn’t mind.. if so I apologize ..

I completely agree with neck tension as an integral part of tuning.
Maybe I am one of the few but, even with proven methods of sizing necks, annealing and all the other things we do, every single stick of my brass is not going to have he same amount of neck tension.
It's something enough reloader have experienced that places like K&M Reloading tools and 21st Century innovations sell arbor presses with pressure gauges.
I have always been of the belief annealing alone does nothing to change group size. Proving that one way or another is virtually impossible because so many other variables are doing their damnedest to be the gremlin in the outcome.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

I anneal the way I do and it makes my gun happy and if my gun is happy, I’m happy

 

[DiRTY DOG]

I have always been of the belief annealing alone does nothing to change group size. Proving that one way or another is virtually impossible because so many other variables are doing their damnedest to be the gremlin in the outcome.

One of the primary benefits of annealing is more consistent shoulder bump and neck tension, which leads to more consistent accuracy (less outliers). Maybe you won't shoot the smallest group vs not annealing, but you'll likely shoot less big groups.

 

[rijndael]

... it makes my gun happy and if my gun is happy, I’m happy

I'm the same way, but I want to know if my gun can be happier.

 

[Straightshooter1]

OK ... 41 posts in and unless I missed it, no test data.

I plan to buy a new Amp MK2 DB when they're available. I'll test it for myself.

The AMP research they've published on their website under Annealing Under The Microscope has a lot a great data. But they only compare their annealing to the non-annealed and Salt Bath Annealing. Their data makes a strong case for annealing over not annealing. . . even over Salt Bath Annealing. Instead of tackling Salt Bath Annealing, I wish they had done it with flame annealing. And maybe, just maybe, they didn't do so knowing that it'd be hard to make a case for any substantial difference the AMP brings to the table in terms of performance on paper. . .???

Having worked with various aircraft sheetmetal alloys, including brass, and now just work with rifle cartridges, I feel I have some idea what the test data might show if the testing is done on an equal basis. Like being sure to heat the brass to the same temperature as the AMP does, though likely for a different period of time to get to the same Vickers hardness numbers. I believe that can be done with flame annealing, but may not be as consistent. Even so, I'd think the variations would be close enough where results on paper would be hard to differentiate, if they could be at all. Those of us who do flame annealing actually use a somewhat wide range of temperatures in our annealing process. If I had the equipment to do this testing, I would have done it a long time ago . . . and published it here.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

So much for going into the project OBJECTIVELY.

what did i say that wasn't objective. when it comes to annealing, it's a fact that the amp has no variations such as flame temp or flame time to worry about.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Staying on the thread topic, the question was how AMP or Flame annealing affected group sizes not neck tension or shoulder bumping.
But just to add a few thoughts, I don’t anneal or not anneal for any of the reasons suggested by our good friend Braxton.
I follow a slightly different path. Perhaps a quote from a different source can explain it better. I hope he doesn’t mind.. if so I apologize ..

couldn't you just make up for the reduced hardness in the neck a tighter bushing? @Alex Wheeler

 

[shoot4fun]

what did i say that wasn't objective. when it comes to annealing, it's a fact that the amp has no variations such as flame temp or flame time to worry about.

Just because the AMP has NO FLAME does not mean it has no variations. They are just different variations.
I feel sure that the folks at AMP wouldn't tell you there is no possibility of variations in heat with their product. They have no idea about the electrical grid in your area nor the integrity of your own home's electrical.
So, no, I (and apparently others here) feel you are just beating your chest and trying to become a mouthpiece on YT and objectivity has nothing to do with your "test".

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Just because the AMP has NO FLAME does not mean it has no variations. They are just different variations.
I feel sure that the folks at AMP wouldn't tell you there is no possibility of variations in heat with their product. They have no idea about the electrical grid in your area nor the integrity of your own home's electrical.
So, no, I (and apparently others here) feel you are just beating your chest and trying to become a mouthpiece on YT and objectivity has nothing to do with your "test".

I didn't say there were no variations POSSIBLE with the amp, I just said there were significantly less variations to worry about compared to flame annealing, in my opinion anyways. I think many people would agree that the amp is the most consistent way to anneal brass to date.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I have no dog in this fight, nor looking to be any kind of mouthpiece for any company. I just like to share things I personally want to know and can maybe help a few others out in the process.

 

[Pete Wass]

why do we anneal? we anneal because we want to restore the brass to its state of original hardness from the factory.

why do we do want this? extend brass life, consistent springback (shoulder bump/neck tension) everytime, and consistent bullet seating forces. we want the brass to act the same before and after firing, everytime.

I think most people believe that keeping these factors consistent is conducive towards precision, therefore expect to achieve this through annealing.

How will annealing potentially show a difference on target? through keeping these factors (in which we can measure) consistently everytime. The flame isn't doing something else magical to the brass (that we cant measure) that makes it somehow change the way it makes a difference on the target.

This is why obtaining these measurements is the best way IMO to test annealing vs not annealing.

I have always believed Brass is a container for things that really matter in shooting. That said, for it to perform as a container well it must be consistent in it's condition. This is what annealing is all about. One can't simply swap brass to make groups grow small in the same way as they can with varying powder charges and seating depths so a container it is.

 

[Webster]

I like it! Maybe use 20 cases, 5 per and then you have 5 for foulers each session.

I also record some of my tests and put them on YouTube, makes them easy to share with friends. Test and upload away, saves others from doing so.

If you screw on a different barrel you would probably get different results. Everyone seems to think any test they do gives valid results. I just go by group size, real simple real results.

 

[Ccrider]

Annealing softens the brass and produces less grip? I get that annealing softens the brass. I always understood that it actually makes the brass more elastic.

How do you measure to conclude that more elastic brass has less grip?

Also, I have experienced where non annealed brass had less grip than annealed brass; so much less that I had to reduce bushing size on non annealed brass.

Not being argumentative. Just my experiences.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

Annealing softens the brass and produces less grip? I get that annealing softens the brass. I always understood that it actually makes the brass more elastic.

How do you measure to conclude that more elastic brass has less grip?

Also, I have experienced where non annealed brass had less grip than annealed brass; so much less that I had to reduce bushing size on non annealed brass.

Not being argumentative. Just my experiences.

annealing makes the brass less elastic, it relieves the stored energy (hardness) which will reduce its tendency to springback.

Work hardened brass is very springy and will always want to move back relative to where it was resting, this will produce less neck tension if you use a bushing and more neck tension it you used a mandrel.

 

[Ccrider]

annealing makes the brass less elastic, it relieves the stored energy (hardness) which will reduce its tendency to springback.

Work hardened brass is very springy and will always want to move back relative to where it was resting, this will produce less neck tension if you use a bushing and more neck tension it you used a mandrel.

Not my experience.

 

[JFrank]

annealing makes the brass less elastic, it relieves the stored energy (hardness) which will reduce its tendency to springback.

Work hardened brass is very springy and will always want to move back relative to where it was resting, this will produce less neck tension if you use a bushing and more neck tension it you used a mandrel.

This last part simply isn’t true.

 

[Ccrider]

This last part simply isn’t true.

I was thinking that. Thanks for saying it.

Numerous times when not annealing, I have gotten to the point to where the hardened brass would not even hold the bullet so I had to use smaller bushings.

 

[bozo699]

annealing makes the brass less elastic, it relieves the stored energy (hardness) which will reduce its tendency to springback.

Work hardened brass is very springy and will always want to move back relative to where it was resting, this will produce less neck tension if you use a bushing and more neck tension it you used a mandrel.

Braxton,
I’m no metallurgist but I know when my brass is under annealed, annealed or over annealed. I’m not trying to be argumentative with you either but by your own admission your not a accomplished shooter which would indicate your not a accomplishment reloader which also tells me you can’t do these kind of comparisons with any sort of accuracy for a end results in your tests. The answers and statements you’re making im guessing have came straight off the internet. I have been doing this a long time and there’s guys on this forum that’s wayyyyyy more accomplished than I am. You can’t do a definitive test with 20 rounds and a day or two at the range!… this will take experience and time jmho best of luck to ya
Wayne

 

[Ccrider]

I say test away and please share your results. Don’t be offended because someone questions or disagrees with you. Most of us are here to learn and share our successes and failures. Either way, with an open mind, you can learn through the process.