Ammo Question/Tuner Question

[gunsandgunsmithing]

You mentioned researching/reading about tuners, and to me this is one of the most informative.

Bill Calfee dismissed the Kolbe work as garbage many times. Like he would know that or something. Nevertheless, he has his following and has spread a ton of misinformation out there regarding tuners that is flat out, indisputably...WRONG! Kolbe was light years ahead of that stuff but nevertheless, the damage is done and people chase their tails a lot, because of that damage....based on a truck antennae. Lol!

 

[JimSC]

what I think would be interesting would be to use a smoke pencil like the ones used in HVAC to see if there are swirls going down that test tube. As I have said I have never even seen one of these so I am just speculating

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

what I think would be interesting would be to use a smoke pencil like the ones used in HVAC to see if there are swirls going down that tube. As I have said I have never even seen one of these so I am just speculating

Sure. You can buy like 30 minute smoke bombs at plumbing supply stores but it'd likely put off way too much smoke. Google a smut pot. I think you could make a few that will show what you wanna see without gagging, with some ventilation in the tunnel, downrange.

 

[TRSR8]

@TRSR8 & @gunsandgunsmithing

Tim & Mike, with all due respect, why do you guys continue to argue about this across the internet? You both seem sure that you're correct. Maybe you are? Have you ever considered that one can be successful using either method of tuning?

In the past few months I've been chatting with people and reading everything I can find on tuning (including your same arguments on two other forums). I've been reading about tuners since the 90's. In the past I was always in the set it and forget side. However I now have a more open mind and I'm willing to try some different things. Last season I shot matches where I saw top shooters struggle in a particular match. Maybe if they would've tested their tuner during the warm up and made small adjustments. Perhaps they wouldn't have struggled as much. I even saw Jerry Stiller struggle at one of our matches. What did he do? He stood up during a card and turned his tuner a couple of clicks. I don't know that it actually helped him but he did it. He was still shooting better than I was while he was struggling. So what do I know?

Anyways, there's nothing wrong with having an open mind and trying different things. Because someone does something differently doesn't necessarily mean their wrong. I like to think that I'm going hybrid by learning from all of your (and others) experience. We'll see how that works out

Again, with all due respect, your interpretation is in error.
Reflect on precisely what has been said.
Mike has jumped on these opining his methodology is absolute, backed by science.
I suspect you’d agree, the universe of RFBR , at the best levels, is driven by builders and shooters that develop, utilize, and follow techniques that often lead to success and I refer to them, not me.
Is that 100% all the time, every time? Far too many variables for that conclusion, however, better to look at it like an over/under.
I’ll take the over.
Look at it this way, the majority of these threads involve new guys, most not able to tune properly to begin with. There is also, for whatever reason, in this game to be far less self critical and blame, ammo, equipment, anything other than less than optimum skills, many ultimately leaving entirely.
Folks want to improve…..learn to filter out the less important and ill timed.
You think the successful twisters started out that way, right out of the box ?
One of the reasons good shooters don’t even weigh in on these deals…..largely a waste of THEIR time.
Bottom line, pay attention to what most of the good guys do, emphasis MOST..
You want improvement, deal with fewer not greater variables.
I’d bet a lung, ME has never, repeat, never owned a great barrel. The better the barrel, the less it needs to be screwed with

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I've read where you've said all this before on another forum. I've tried to replicate that target that you've posted (at least a few times now) in the tunnel by me with two different rifles. One with a naked Holeshot tuner and one with a naked Harrels. Both with a good lot of Midas+. Neither target looked anything like that centerfire one you've posted. Not saying your targets wrong. Just having trouble replicating it with my 2500X and X3L

Look, I'm not siding with either of you. When I saw this thread come up and both of you posting I made a mental bet with myself that you'll end up in the same argument stating the same things. And here we are.

EDIT...And I knew the post you made above (#67) was coming. You're both predictable

Pat, I know you know about a iR50 sporters if you can understand how they can shoot so well without the ability to make any adjustments and apply that same concept to a UL you can get to where you want to be.
The ability to make adjustments with a tuner is a lot easier than trimming a barrel to get at the correct weight at the muzzle. Correct weight at the muzzle is how you can time the bullet’s exit correctly
Remember it is all about exit timing

Lee

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Again, with all due respect, your interpretation is in error.
Reflect on precisely what has been said.
Mike has jumped on these opining his methodology is absolute, backed by science, and, forgive me , motivated by pushing his “ proprietary” tuners.
I suspect you’d agree, the universe of RFBR , at the best levels, is driven by builders and shooters that develop, utilize, and follow techniques that often lead to success and I refer to them, not me.
Is that 100% all the time, every time? Far too many variables for that conclusion, however, better to look at it like an over/under.
I’ll take the over.
Look at it this way, the majority of these threads involve new guys, most not able to tune properly to begin with. There is also, for whatever reason, in this game to be far less self critical and blame, ammo, equipment, anything other than less than optimum skills, many ultimately leaving entirely.
Folks want to improve…..learn to filter out the less important and ill timed.
You think the successful twisters started out that way, right out of the box ?
One of the reasons good shooters don’t even weigh in on these deals…..largely a waste of THEIR time.
Bottom line, pay attention to what most of the good guys do, emphasis MOST..
You want improvement, deal with fewer not greater variables.
I’d bet a lung, ME has never, repeat, never owned a great barrel. The better the barrel, the less it needs to be screwed with

Tell me about your testing. Most everything you post is about what others do. What testing have you done? Fair question or not? My method is not re-inventing anything but breaking down more common approaches to be more methodical, is all. Every single movement of the tuner should tell you something of value. It's simply a more methodical approach. So, what was your point again? Oh yeah....me selling tuners. So why do I help people with other makes and remember, it's just a more methodical approach...with any tuner. My goal is to get beyond the bad info Timmy. We should both want that.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Pat, I know you know about a iR50 sporters if you can understand how they can shoot so well without the ability to make any adjustments and apply that same concept to a UL you can get to where you want to be.
The ability to make adjustments with a tuner is a lot easier than trimming a barrel to get at the correct weight at the muzzle. Correct weight at the muzzle is how you can time the bullet’s exit correctly
Remember it is all about exit timing

Lee

It IS about timing...You're right. But there's never been and there never will be, a setting that is always in perfect tune. It's just not how physics works. That's not to say that you can't find lots that time with bbl position to produce small groups and shoot well. Same as there are multiple loads that may shoot well in a cf, with different powders or loads. Exactly the same.

 

[TRSR8]

Pat, I know you know about a iR50 sporters if you can understand how they can shoot so well without the ability to make any adjustments and apply that same concept to a UL you can get to where you want to be.
The ability to make adjustments with a tuner is a lot easier than trimming a barrel to get at the correct weight at the muzzle. Correct weight at the muzzle is how you can time the bullet’s exit correctly
Remember it is all about exit timing

Lee

A question I have asked our friend for literally, years without response.
Most guys invested in these threads have likely never been within 100 feet of one, and the premise that most guys compensate by bringing many lots to the bench is mostly BS.
I’ve won my fair share of sporter matches and went years with a single lot.

 

[PWNolan]

I'd take a light but consistent wind anywhere, over dead still. That's when the gremlins show up most, ime. I think a lot of those gremlins are mirage related but gremlins, either way.

When the ventilation is strong, based on what the little sail tail was doing it was pretty turbulent. The rifles still seem to shoot pretty well. However definitely better when the air flow was less

 

[TRSR8]

Tell me about your testing. Most everything you post is about what others do. What testing have you done? Fair question or not? My method is not re-inventing anything but breaking down more common approaches to be more methodical, is all. Every single movement of the tuner should tell you something of value. It's simply a more methodical approach. So, what was your point again? Oh yeah....me selling tuners. So why do I help people with other makes and remember, it's just a more methodical approach...with any tuner. My goal is to get beyond the bad info Timmy. We should both want that.

First off the tuner selling thing was in bad taste, not relevant, piling on, edited out, my apologies.
I, as well as top flight smiths I use and have a close relationship with have done extensive testing.
I refer to others to remove “ myself” largely from the equation, anybody curious can easily find what I may or may not have accomplished in RFBR.
Just like CFBR which is why Tony Boyer sold lots of books, emulate what the winners largely do.

 

[CharlieNC]

Pat, I know you know about a iR50 sporters if you can understand how they can shoot so well without the ability to make any adjustments and apply that same concept to a UL you can get to where you want to be.
The ability to make adjustments with a tuner is a lot easier than trimming a barrel to get at the correct weight at the muzzle. Correct weight at the muzzle is how you can time the bullet’s exit correctly
Remember it is all about exit timing

Lee

That is exactly why I mentioned the Kolbe paper with a link. While not discussed, his charts show the addition of a 1/2 pound tuner did little to affect the amplitude or frequency of muzzle vibration, but did affect the bullet exit timing to achieve positive compensation and thus smaller groups. So anything such as velocity, etc which affect exit timing will technically have an affect on tuning. The only question is how much change is necessary to make a significant change that affects the tune of the rifle system (depending on barrel length, diameter (stiffness), tuner weight, tuner graduations, etc.)

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Pat, I know you know about a iR50 sporters if you can understand how they can shoot so well without the ability to make any adjustments and apply that same concept to a UL you can get to where you want to be.
The ability to make adjustments with a tuner is a lot easier than trimming a barrel to get at the correct weight at the muzzle. Correct weight at the muzzle is how you can time the bullet’s exit correctly
Remember it is all about exit timing

Lee

That is exactly why I mentioned the Kolbe paper with a link. While not discussed, his charts show the addition of a 1/2 pound tuner did little to affect the amplitude or frequency of muzzle vibration, but did affect the bullet exit timing to achieve positive compensation and thus smaller groups. So anything such as velocity, etc which affect exit timing will technically have an affect on tuning. The only question is how much change is necessary to make a significant change that affects the tune of the rifle system (depending on barrel length, diameter (stiffness), tuner weight, tuner graduations, etc.)

Positive Compensation as theorized is not 100% achievable. Partially is best can be achieved otherwise there would be little need to lot test ammo. The ability to achieve perfect bullet exit timing with PC would in theory make a lot shoot 0.000 groups every shot
There is a window so to speak you can tune to so multiple lots of consistent ammo can shoot without the need to touch the tuner.
Key word is CONSISTENT ammo
Also remember in RFBR to place a shot constantly to the correct hold is what you need. If you need to make an adjustment to the tuner with the same lot either you were at the wrong setting or the ammo wasn’t up to what you needed to shoot with to be competitive

Lee

 

[Doc22]

So,,,, OP here. this post went left really quick. I have lss than 4 months in the game so i am taking all of this information and trying to absorb it all. Here is where I currently stand.
1) the term cheap is a subjective term, cheap price wise to one person may be expensive to another
2) Tuners cannot make inconsistent ammo better
3) Tuning is an art (up for debate)

Wind reading trumps everything.

Do I pretty much have it?

 

[Doc22]

Based on this test target, how many marks would you move at a time to get rid of the vertical in group 11? Each number on the target represents one mark, fwiw. Also, 10 was a repeatable sweet spot.

View attachment 1507506

Okay please explain to me what I should get from this photo. I see the sine wave. If all of these are tuner settings Isnt Zero the best 3 shot group here.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

So,,,, OP here. this post went left really quick. I have lss than 4 months in the game so i am taking all of this information and trying to absorb it all. Here is where I currently stand.
1) the term cheap is a subjective term, cheap price wise to one person may be expensive to another
2) Tuners cannot make inconsistent ammo better
3) Tuning is an art (up for debate)

Wind reading trumps everything.

Do I pretty much have it?

Doc, you are correct about consistent ammo also about inconsistent ammo
Tuning is not an art only to understand what you are needing to do to time the bullet’s exit from the barrel correctly.
Ability to correctly execute the right wind holds trumps everything else. Catch 22 is having a rifle that can consistently place the shot to where you want. Without these last two things you’re at the bottom of the rabbit hole called RFBR shooting

Lee

 

[JimSC]

Sure. You can buy like 30 minute smoke bombs at plumbing supply stores but it'd likely put off way too much smoke. Google a smut pot. I think you could make a few that will show what you wanna see without gagging, with some ventilation in the tunnel, downrange.

I was think more along the lines of

Draeger.Web WWW - Draeger Master

www.draeger.com

 

[CharlieNC]

Positive Compensation as theorized is not 100% achievable. Partially is best can be achieved otherwise there would be little need to lot test ammo. The ability to achieve perfect bullet exit timing with PC would in theory make a lot shoot 0.000 groups every shot
There is a window so to speak you can tune to so multiple lots of consistent ammo can shoot without the need to touch the tuner.
Key word is CONSISTENT ammo
Also remember in RFBR to place a shot constantly to the correct hold is what you need. If you need to make an adjustment to the tuner with the same lot either you were at the wrong setting or the ammo wasn’t up to what you needed to shoot with to be competitive

Lee

I agree, primarily because "we" have not become smart enough to design the right barrel/tuner combo to achieve the near 100% positive compensation.

 

[Doc22]

Tuning is not an art only to understand what you are needing to do to time the bullet’s exit from the barrel correctly.


Lee

Doesnt this also have to do with technique things like how long you hold the trigger, and how tight you hold the gun and so on and so on. lol.
This sport is one of the best kept secrets. I used to think how hard can it be you dont even hold the gun you just put it on a rest and pull the trigger. Boy was I wrong

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Doesnt this also have to do with technique things like how long you hold the trigger, and how tight you hold the gun and so on and so on. lol.
This sport is one of the best kept secrets. I used to think how hard can it be you dont even hold the gun you just put it on a rest and pull the trigger. Boy was I wrong

Anything that can alter recoil has an effect on the tune. Controlling recoil is part of the equation to tune

Lee

I agree, primarily because "we" have not become smart enough to design the right barrel/tuner combo to achieve the near 100% positive compensation.

or we just haven’t seen the ammo that is capable to shoot those 0.000

Lee

 

[TRSR8]

Positive Compensation as theorized is not 100% achievable. Partially is best can be achieved otherwise there would be little need to lot test ammo. The ability to achieve perfect bullet exit timing with PC would in theory make a lot shoot 0.000 groups every shot
There is a window so to speak you can tune to so multiple lots of consistent ammo can shoot without the need to touch the tuner.
Key word is CONSISTENT ammo
Also remember in RFBR to place a shot constantly to the correct hold is what you need. If you need to make an adjustment to the tuner with the same lot either you were at the wrong setting or the ammo wasn’t up to what you needed to shoot with to be competitive

Lee

There is something here often missed by many.
I “suspect” because nobody really knows one major quality of a really good barrel vs others.
The best ones, for whatever reason, stabilize the slug much earlier in the barrel and allow very consistent and stabile exits. Many barrels do not allow for this. Anybody betting against different vibration characteristics between those two types?