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Accurate Shooter Article: Test of Factory action before and after "trueing"

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What is your point? It is just that simple. What is complicated or really just technical is the machine work. Once you have quality parts just put them together.

Right? Pearls before swine my friend...

After working automotive and aerospace as an engineer for over twenty years, I am constantly amazed at the hostility to basic manufacturing and assembly processes in these discussions

Parts is parts my friend. Parts is parts. Custom guns just have better parts. But in the end the parts are ASSEMBLED.
 
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it seems when i see one of these kind of threads it is just someone who has a preconceived conception about the subject and wants to hear from those who can reinforce that opinion.

really guys it is all in what you are trying to achieve. i would say the largest percentage of shooters out there would be wasting their money. truing an action with a factory barrel? what a waste. how many shooters out there have those consistent .5 MOA rifles. Consistent is the key word here. On any given day they can consistently shoot half inch or less groups. put 5 five shot groups on the same target and average them. count the flyers too! they are part of your groups.

now when you start trying to improve to .25" and better is when it gets interesting. truing an action is just a given. not much additional work when chambering a barrel.
 
I started out with a basic Remington 700 with a factory varmint weight 308 12tw barrel. In the factory stock with a 36x scope it shot Federal Goldmatch 175's .75 to 1" @100 off bipod. I competed with it in TN my first year shooting F-class both mid and long range. I was learning to shoot in a different way than before so I left it stock in case I didnt like the competition.

That winter I answered a post from here advertising a Boots Obermeyer 308 tight bore barrel. I couldnt pay for it outright but worked a deal with the Gentleman and got that barrel. Then I got Howard Pitts to true everything and chamber my barrel. With the same factory stock with the barrel channel cleaned up to allow free fit the groups were now .5 to .75 consistently with the 175 Fed match. Then I changed to a HS precision with the AL block and my rifle became .5 or better shooter with the Fed match. What really made the difference was with my reloads. Thats when I won a state championship with a trued Remington 700 against several custom actions including Bat.

I lost a friend several years ago because he wrongly mistook a post I made. But I say it again. Someone starting out with an all factory rifle will not be competitive against trued or custom actions/barrels. MANY of the HM's would not win tournaments shooting factory Remingtons either. So truing a pig may not win you a national title but it can teach you to overcome the other problems like wind/mirage reading, barrel maintenance, and match strategies.

Allen
 
I would like to see a test of a bone stock Remington action accuracy test before and after trueing.

I don't think anyone has ever done that.

I sat next to Bob Brackney at a short range (100/200) Benchrest match in which he was shooting a "trued" Remington 700. He did quite well. I know that this does not directly address your question, but I have never seen a "stock" Remington at a big Benchrest match, and I certainly have not seen one shoot as well. Good shooting...James

PS- The rifle was a single shot, but I am not certain that it was a 700 with a magazine block or it possibly could have been a 40X action (which is basically a 700 w/out a cut for the magazine.
 
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I sat next to Bob Brackney at a short range (100/200) Benchrest match in which he was shooting a "trued" Remington 700. He did quite well. I know that this does not directly address your question, but I have never seen a "stock" Remington at a big Benchrest match, and I certainly have not seen one shoot as well. Good shooting...James
yep sleeved rems were popular
 
Well, unfortunately I have done this test. I have written about it in several other post on here. I bought a 700 BDL in 22-250 at the Fort Worth Gun Show. Sold the stock and barrel on Ebay. Bought a #4 10 twist 308 Benchmark barrel. Had my smith chamber it in 308 Win. Had a Calvin Elite 8 oz trigger and a Night Force BR scope on it for load testing. Put in in a HS unbedded stock. Loaded Varget, H4895, IMR4064 and some other powders, primers, and dont know how many bullets and differant seating depts. The smith didn't lap the lugs because of what he called "cam over" when the bolt gets open. He did true the threads and the action face. I had him put a PTG recoil lug also. It was a turd. 1.5" 3 shot if you were lucky. Then my McMillian BDL stock came in and had the smith had bedded it. Still a turd. Sent the rifle to Benchmark they said it wasn't the barrel. Smith said it was. I had him order the barrel this time. A #5 Kreiger, and it shot the same. Took it back to him he started getting pissed, but he wouldn't shoot it. Thats when I started getting pissed. He sent it to Kreiger, they sent a new barrel blank. And guess what, still a turd. I was getting sick to my stomach by this point. I was pissed at the smith, at Remington, and the 308. So, I thought about making it someone else's problem, but figured I had to much in it to take that big of a hit and didn't really feel right about doing that to someone who would buy a custom rifle. So, I went over to Alamo Precision and had a talk with the owner and one of the smiths. I found a 7mm 9 twist 5.5 Krieger from Bruno's. Took it over to Alamo. This time, the action was trued. The bolt lugs, action lugs (I guess that's what you call it), bolt face, face of the action and they recut the threads then added a .25" Holland and holland recoil lug. The smith told me that it was as true as he could get it and if it didnt shoot he didn't know what to tell me. I took it to the range and it is 1/2" or better more times than not (if the nut behind the bolt does his job) and a bad group is 3/4". And that's with a 2# trigger and a 10 power scope. Not just with one load either. So I had 3 barrels that I truely believe were machined correctly and as good as can be, and the rifle would average about 1.5 MOA on a good day. The action got trued and the rifle went from a SOB to a shooting SOB. It sucks I went thru that though. I wouldn't advise it. I lost a lot of sleep over that deal. It wasn't fun testing the "to true a remmy action or not test" for me. But, I do believe that if a 700 action is not trued you are rolling the dice. And I have come to that conclusion from first hand experience. I have some that do shoot and are not trued like the one Alamo did this one. When I went back to Alamo to ask about how bad the action was off, the smith that did the work was on vacation and I dought he would remember now. And like I said in the other post, I think the first smith was burned out and needed to retire. Which he did after that. He is well known and has built many fine rifles. A buddy of mine was talking to him and told him I had that rifle rebarreled and he said it really did bother him. But, he still should have shot the damn thing. Anyway, I think if your trying to get all out of a 700 you can, it needs to be trued. And I still have lots of before and after targets. I saved almost all of them. It would have killed deer, but I expect it to be better that minute of deer for that kind of money.
 
Well, unfortunately I have done this test. I have written about it in several other post on here. I bought a 700 BDL in 22-250 at the Fort Worth Gun Show. Sold the stock and barrel on Ebay. Bought a #4 10 twist 308 Benchmark barrel. Had my smith chamber it in 308 Win. Had a Calvin Elite 8 oz trigger and a Night Force BR scope on it for load testing. Put in in a HS unbedded stock. Loaded Varget, H4895, IMR4064 and some other powders, primers, and dont know how many bullets and differant seating depts. The smith didn't lap the lugs because of what he called "cam over" when the bolt gets open. He did true the threads and the action face. I had him put a PTG recoil lug also. It was a turd. 1.5" 3 shot if you were lucky. Then my McMillian BDL stock came in and had the smith had bedded it. Still a turd. Sent the rifle to Benchmark they said it wasn't the barrel. Smith said it was. I had him order the barrel this time. A #5 Kreiger, and it shot the same. Took it back to him he started getting pissed, but he wouldn't shoot it. Thats when I started getting pissed. He sent it to Kreiger, they sent a new barrel blank. And guess what, still a turd. I was getting sick to my stomach by this point. I was pissed at the smith, at Remington, and the 308. So, I thought about making it someone else's problem, but figured I had to much in it to take that big of a hit and didn't really feel right about doing that to someone who would buy a custom rifle. So, I went over to Alamo Precision and had a talk with the owner and one of the smiths. I found a 7mm 9 twist 5.5 Krieger from Bruno's. Took it over to Alamo. This time, the action was trued. The bolt lugs, action lugs (I guess that's what you call it), bolt face, face of the action and they recut the threads then added a .25" Holland and holland recoil lug. The smith told me that it was as true as he could get it and if it didnt shoot he didn't know what to tell me. I took it to the range and it is 1/2" or better more times than not (if the nut behind the bolt does his job) and a bad group is 3/4". And that's with a 2# trigger and a 10 power scope. Not just with one load either. So I had 3 barrels that I truely believe were machined correctly and as good as can be, and the rifle would average about 1.5 MOA on a good day. The action got trued and the rifle went from a SOB to a shooting SOB. It sucks I went thru that though. I wouldn't advise it. I lost a lot of sleep over that deal. It wasn't fun testing the "to true a remmy action or not test" for me. But, I do believe that if a 700 action is not trued you are rolling the dice. And I have come to that conclusion from first hand experience. I have some that do shoot and are not trued like the one Alamo did this one. When I went back to Alamo to ask about how bad the action was off, the smith that did the work was on vacation and I dought he would remember now. And like I said in the other post, I think the first smith was burned out and needed to retire. Which he did after that. He is well known and has built many fine rifles. A buddy of mine was talking to him and told him I had that rifle rebarreled and he said it really did bother him. But, he still should have shot the damn thing. Anyway, I think if your trying to get all out of a 700 you can, it needs to be trued. And I still have lots of before and after targets. I saved almost all of them. It would have killed deer, but I expect it to be better that minute of deer for that kind of money.
wow im sorry to hear you had to go through all that. Thanks for sharing that with us.
 
I have a couple of really good customers that shoot a LOT. They also love to build new rifles. They are happy with .5 moa from their rifles and mostly shoot at steel out to 1200. I have built them rifles on all my favorite actions. But they now only ask for bone stock factory 700 actions because they have always been able to achieve their goals. All of this is subjective but its my opinion that the action is not the limiting factor until you start talking sub .5 moa. I barreled a Springfield action in 300 WSM once, it was so crooked I had to cut the threads extremely loose just to allow the action face to seat. Now, this is not normally my cup of tea, but it was for a local guy here and I was kind of curious. He brought me the targets and I'll be damned if this thing was not a SOLID .5 moa rifle. When I am asked if I recommend truing, my answer is not if .5 moa is good. If your looking for less than .5 moa then I do recommend truing the action. The new 700 actions are very very good. A lot of numbers get tossed around. Remember the super shoot has been won with a .2 agg. Most the time when we are reading about a .2 moa rifle that means it has shot some .2s. A rifle that will agg .2s is not as common as some believe. I would bet most .2 moa rifles may have a hard time agging .5 moa.
 
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I know this thread is about truing Remmy actions but I thought I'd add my experiences with Savage PTA's. For folks not familiar with PTA it stands for Precision Target Action. I bought 3 new ones,all shoot EXTREMELY well, fitted with 20 caliber Criterion barrels. I'm talking consistent aggregates of high 2's to low 3's of many 5 shot groups. Half inch, 5 shot groups at 300 yards. I'm not exaggerating. No modifications to these actions. Then I purchased a used PTA from a dishonest shooter off a forum which had badly galled lugs so before ever using it I sent it away to arguably the best savage gunsmith in the country, Fred at Sharp Shooter Supply. He did his usual Time and True job. It shoots exactly the same as the 3 other factory stock PTA's. Based on what I've heard and consistent with my experiences Savage PTA's more often than not shoot well without any need for truing work.
 
I have responded to threads like this before, and here is my one gun success story. My brother has a Rem .22-250 stainless synthetic fluted. The best he could get it to shoot was 1.5" at 200. Since he is a machinist, he started looking and noticed only one lug was bearing. Took it apart, found the action face .008 out. Trued the action, lugs and boltface, reset the headspace and took it to the range. .75 at 200. Cut his groups in half. YMMV but depending on where the inaccuracy is coming from, it can help. Of course if the barrel had been the weak point, he would have wasted his time until he bought a new barrel.
 
I have responded to threads like this before, and here is my one gun success story. My brother has a Rem .22-250 stainless synthetic fluted. The best he could get it to shoot was 1.5" at 200. Since he is a machinist, he started looking and noticed only one lug was bearing. Took it apart, found the action face .008 out. Trued the action, lugs and boltface, reset the headspace and took it to the range. .75 at 200. Cut his groups in half. YMMV but depending on where the inaccuracy is coming from, it can help. Of course if the barrel had been the weak point, he would have wasted his time until he bought a new barrel.


So many great posts!!! Thank you so much for taking the time to type all that up!!!
 
I know this thread is about truing Remmy actions but I thought I'd add my experiences with Savage PTA's. For folks not familiar with PTA it stands for Precision Target Action. I bought 3 new ones,all shoot EXTREMELY well, fitted with 20 caliber Criterion barrels. I'm talking consistent aggregates of high 2's to low 3's of many 5 shot groups. Half inch, 5 shot groups at 300 yards. I'm not exaggerating. No modifications to these actions. Then I purchased a used PTA from a dishonest shooter off a forum which had badly galled lugs so before ever using it I sent it away to arguably the best savage gunsmith in the country, Fred at Sharp Shooter Supply. He did his usual Time and True job. It shoots exactly the same as the 3 other factory stock PTA's. Based on what I've heard and consistent with my experiences Savage PTA's more often than not shoot well without any need for truing work.

I think that floating bolt head gives the Savage a bit of an edge over the Remington.

I think Shilen got it right when they added the Savage bolt to their Remington Clone. I can't believe more designs don't do that...
 
I wouldnt say that. The most accurate rifles in the world are a one piece bolt. I dont know of any group records held by a floating bolt head receiver.
 
The new 700 actions are very very good.

Could you please comment on this further? I tell you the truth, I tend to believe that modern CNC is capable of incredible precision and repeatability. And Bud's guns has the single shot SS Remmy every day for $400!!! And while it is so tempting to order the new Kelbly for $1000 for myself (with the lug included and pinned!!!), that $400 action is a better action for many people getting started into their first custom (of which I have several friends who would like to do a build).
 
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The new 700 actions are much straighter than the old ones. Many I have trued did not even need it. The older actions are much farther out. Keep in mind the new one will need the handle modified and re located as most of them have no primary extraction. But after that simple job they are a solid receiver for many uses.
 
I think that floating bolt head gives the Savage a bit of an edge over the Remington.

I think Shilen got it right when they added the Savage bolt to their Remington Clone. I can't believe more designs don't do that...

the only edge that gives its easier to manufacture when you dont have to hold a tolerance. you being an engineer can appreciate the mass producing quality of that not only for alignment but that one action can be a 223 or a 300win mag. that doesnt mean its best for accuracy but it turns out good for the laundry room gunsmiths that couldnt otherwise tinker with their action. it doesnt take very long for a gunsmith to straighten a remington out if it needs it and then the remington has what you call that edge back real quick.
 
Another thing people dont seem to think about with floating head actions is the firing pin. Consistent ignition is critical for accuracy, what do you think happens when basically bend the bolt? Either you have to have a sloppy hole for the entire pin to travel or you get bind. They also can bind on the pin that holds the bolt head. I do not like floating bolt heads if you cant tell.
 
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