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Accurate Shooter Article: Test of Factory action before and after "trueing"

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But, I do believe that if a 700 action is not trued you are rolling the dice.

sorry for your experience but a huge thanks for sharing it. i have, without any proof or first hand experience, felt similar.

i've recently acquired a couple well used 700's that i have considered doing the remage conversion, but i've stopped short when i realize part of the beauty of the savage setup is the floating bolt head. I believe that clever technique is a (the?) main contributor to savage accuracy, hence not needing a trued action.
 
The new 700 actions are much straighter than the old ones. Many I have trued did not even need it. The older actions are much farther out. Keep in mind the new one will need the handle modified and re located as most of them have no primary extraction. But after that simple job they are a solid receiver for many uses.

Your Youtube channel is outstanding. So, is that the $100 job on your website? Do, you tig the handle?
 
I wouldnt say that. The most accurate rifles in the world are a one piece bolt. I dont know of any group records held by a floating bolt head receiver.

I am not sure one has anything to do with the other.... No offense. Like saying all great hockey players are white, because white people are better at hockey...
 
Most the time when we are reading about a .2 moa rifle that means it has shot some .2s. A rifle that will agg .2s is not as common as some believe. I would bet most .2 moa rifles may have a hard time agging .5 moa.
Very true! I had an enlightening conversation with John Pierce concerning a build on a M70 action. He said if I wanted it to shoot good, put a good barrel on it. Which is all he did to the rifle. It has shot some .3 groups, but I tend to hover around a 1/2 inch. Of course if I wanted to agg less than .5, I would have let him work over the action too. I"ve heard it is all about potential. It have the possibility to shoot the best groups, it is better to have everything right to start with.
 
I know this thread is about truing Remmy actions but I thought I'd add my experiences with Savage PTA's. For folks not familiar with PTA it stands for Precision Target Action. I bought 3 new ones,all shoot EXTREMELY well, fitted with 20 caliber Criterion barrels. I'm talking consistent aggregates of high 2's to low 3's of many 5 shot groups. Half inch, 5 shot groups at 300 yards. I'm not exaggerating. No modifications to these actions. Then I purchased a used PTA from a dishonest shooter off a forum which had badly galled lugs so before ever using it I sent it away to arguably the best savage gunsmith in the country, Fred at Sharp Shooter Supply. He did his usual Time and True job. It shoots exactly the same as the 3 other factory stock PTA's. Based on what I've heard and consistent with my experiences Savage PTA's more often than not shoot well without any need for truing work.

well i too enjoy the savage target actions. the target with 5 five shot groups was shot with a savage target action, shilen select match in 6br, factory accutrigger and a stock i finished and bedded. the single target was shot with a time and true, freds benchrest trigger, freds stock and bedding job with a shilen select match 6br barrel. Freds timing job is worth it. the action cycles like no other savage i have ever shot and the accuracy speaks for itself.

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I am not sure that all "tests" conducted by shooting magazines are "significant" by any stretch of the engineering or statistical imagination. Never really stopped anyone from doing them.

I am kind of surprised no one that does action trueing hasn't already done it and published the results to brag on how much better they shoot after a trueing.

It would be easy to do, just use a Criterion nut barrel. In fact you could use SEVERAL barrels and calibers on the same action. Just to make it interesting.

Well, if a gunsmith did the test, do you suppose he'd admit that he couldn't detect any difference?.................no, I didn't think so.

But there is a broader difficulty in testing action truing. Contrary to what you say, this test would NOT be easy. Or more correctly, while the test might be easy, finding proof would definitely not be easy. Here's why.

Most of us test by shooting paper targets at ranges between 100 and 1000 yards using bullets shot out of a rifle held by a human in conditions where the bullet travels through an unknown atmosphere. The loads, although we try to make them as uniform as possible, are subject to all sorts of variations caused by case volume differences, primer inconsistency, bullet diameter, weight, and shape differences, barrel temperature, etc. etc. etc. Otherwise, our bullets would hit the target where we aim each time we pull the trigger.

When you test a before-and-after action, I would imagine you're looking for improvements much smaller than those you might experience by differences in barrel temperature, to use one example. In fact, of all the things that come to mind which make our hand loads less than perfect by the time the bullets get to the target, I would guess that action truing is way down the list of significant factors.

In other words, teasing meaningful data out of a data set which is chock full of noise when you expect only a tiny difference in the particular factor you're testing is fraught with uncertainty.

But that doesn't mean it's not worth truing your action just because you can't prove that it helps accuracy. It might be well worth the cost just to have an action which cycles better and feels nice. I believe that any accuracy "improvement", if it actually exists, is just like many of the tiny steps we take with our hand-loads and equipment preparation in a determined attempt to get a leg up on our fellow match competitors. Can you prove how much normalizing your primer pockets helps your group size or SD figures? Can you prove that annealing every time is the best routine. I can't and neither could Brian Litz when he examined annealing frequency...... but I do it anyway and I keep my fingers crossed that dotting all the I's and crossing the T's will add up to an advantage. If nothing else, it gives me increased confidence, which is more important than some people might imagine.
 
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I am not sure one has anything to do with the other.... No offense. Like saying all great hockey players are white, because white people are better at hockey...
I have been to many BR and LR BR matches in the last 30 yrs. and I have never seen a Savage type bolt. The reason for the floating head is to compensate for an untrue lug abutments in a receiver.
 
Lap all my Remington action lugs to ensure even contact. For the tread (if not really off) a reasonable torque for the tread size will set the barrel solidly. The even lug contact is very important since an uneven contact applies a very high moment on the action inducing barrel vibrations.
 
I have been to many BR and LR BR matches in the last 30 yrs. and I have never seen a Savage type bolt. The reason for the floating head is to compensate for an untrue lug abutments in a receiver.

comparing a savage action to a panda in a benchrest rifle is a no contest. sure a savage can be quite accurate but can't compare when it comes to cycling the action. with the panda or any of the other custom benchrest actions you can cycle the action quickly without disturbing the rifle on the bags. try that with a savage no matter who works on it.
 
Interesting how invested people are on both sides. If we would focus on statistical data as opposed to opinions or feelings, we could make headway. I know 2 smiths that worked together for 20+ years. One believed in truing everything, one did not. In the end, you could tell no difference on paper. They tried all the high dollar actions, yet went back to rem 700s. To each their own, but I would like to see the difference on paper.
 
Interesting how invested people are on both sides. If we would focus on statistical data as opposed to opinions or feelings, we could make headway. I know 2 smiths that worked together for 20+ years. One believed in truing everything, one did not. In the end, you could tell no difference on paper. They tried all the high dollar actions, yet went back to rem 700s. To each their own, but I would like to see the difference on paper.
I have a different conclusion, the smiths that you speak of work to low accuracy standards. I have experience with untrued actions and trued as well as custom actions. In my opinion if they are used as parts of rifles built with top quality barrels and properly stocked anyone who says that he cannot tell a difference should stick to cleaning shotguns before dove season.
 
most of the smiths who build winning competition benchrest rifles "True" those $1500 custom actions. They also may go through half a dozen of the best premium barrels made before selecting the one.

To each his own. whatever works for you. for me the little additional cost of truing when installing and chambering a premium barrel is worth it. Could be worth another 0.10 reduction in group size.
 
Boyd, ignorant statement considering you don’t know them.
Richard, well said. I would still like to see groups on paper to see the actual difference
 
Boyd, ignorant statement considering you don’t know them.
Richard, well said. I would still like to see groups on paper to see the actual difference

I have yet to see someone post definitive data showing that truing an action improves accuracy. I don't dismiss that it could, but I see a lot of definitive statements without proof. As a scientist, I say, show me the data.

I have yet to find a crappy factory Savage/Remington action which I prefit and doesn't yield 1/3-1/2 MOA. I don't shoot benchrest, I don't claim to know much about it, and 99% of shooters don't care about it. But I shoot 1000 and even 2000 yards and such rifles suit me just fine in hunting and non BR competition.
 
I have yet to see someone post definitive data showing that truing an action improves accuracy. I don't dismiss that it could, but I see a lot of definitive statements without proof. As a scientist, I say, show me the data.

After seeing several threads and numerous responses on this subject, I have to conclude the data doesn't exist to prove either case. That is, I don't think there is data to prove either truing improves accuracy or truing doesn't improve accuracy.
I also don't believe anyone is going to do a study.
 
After seeing several threads and numerous responses on this subject, I have to conclude the data doesn't exist to prove either case. That is, I don't think there is data to prove either truing improves accuracy or truing doesn't improve accuracy.
I also don't believe anyone is going to do a study.


Bob, did you read my post?
Well, I've done it. I bought a Remington cheapo in 25/06 because of the price only. I don't care for the caliber. It shot 2"-3" groups of 3 shots with factory ammo. I put a 36X scope on it and used windflags. I said this is the chance to see what works. Since I am trigger sensitive I put a crisp Shilen trigger on it. Couldn't tell much difference. Bought a name brand custom stock and bedded it. Groups went to 1.5"-2.5" with the same ammo. Next step was to take a cleanup cut on the face of the receiver, locking lug abutments, and single point the receiver threads. This being a newer CNC receiver it was so close that it took little. I barely touched the nose of the bolt and the back of the locking lugs. If you write all your cuts down you do not need to set the barrel back. I cleaned up the recoil lug on my surface grinder. Yes, I reinstalled the factory barrel as practically nothing was removed from the threads. ABSOLUTELY no change in accuracy. I chambered a barrel from a Wisc. barrel company and best it would do was 1.25"-2.25" with the same factory ammo. It seems that reloads helped marginally, but not enough to crow about.
This is just my experience on a one time deal. Most all factory rifles will kill an animal out of the box. Was it worth it, well somebody got it cheap.

tomswede,you said,
"Lap all my Remington action lugs to ensure even contact. For the tread (if not really off) a reasonable torque for the tread size will set the barrel solidly. The even lug contact is very important since an uneven contact applies a very high moment on the action inducing barrel vibrations".
Unless you fit a custom bolt or sleeve the existing bolt body, lapping is a waste of time. Cock the bolt on yours and watch the bolt raise in the rear. It unloads the upper bolt lug.
 
I also don't believe anyone is going to do a study.
I'LL DO IT. You guys pay for it. I'll need a lathe, a mill, tooling, guages, tuition at Murray state, A stack of test rifles, brass, bullets, powder, primers, etc. I have a computer to record the results on, so don't you all worry about that one. Give me a couple of years and I'll get back to you with the results.
 
Butch,
With all respect, I think that you may have missed something. It is obvious that the barrel was the limiting factor in you rifle's accuracy. When we look at this question there are two or three things that we need to know,what their accuracy standards are, what barrel is going on the action, whether they have any rifle that shoots really small to verify that they know how to tune and shoot, and if there is some other problem that is limiting the performance of the rifle to a degree that would hide any improvement from truing an action. A friend had a Remington that did not shoot to his expectation with a top grade aftermarket barrel. The action turned out to have threads that were way out, cocked and off center. When that was fixed, the problem went away. Your action was very close to correct and your barrel was obviously very bad, two entirely different situations. For years I shot stock rifles and was always able to tune them to well under an inch. If that is all someone wants then truing may not be needed, but when someone asks if it makes a difference, I can say with confidence that it can, certainly depending on how bad it was in the first place and what the other problems are. When someone asks a question on a site that is all about high levels of accuracy, I tend to assume that that is his interest. For me that means groups, with suitable calibers, down around a quarter inch or better. As an example, I have a friend who has a fine varmint rifle built around an action that Bob Brackney worked on, doing the whole truing and bolt sleeving thing. The barrel is top shelf, with a custom chamber in 6BR and a slow twist for varmint weight bullets. With custom benchrest bullets, under good conditions it has no problem producing five shot groups in the mid 2s, and with 70 grain Blitzkings he gets high 2s to mid 3s. I tend to assume those kinds of goals. I have a bench rifle built on a 722 that is glued into its stock with a tight neck .222 chamber in a Hart barrel that has no problem producing groups in the low 2s with a well tuned load, on an easy day, shooting over flags. If someone is building a deer rifle I would wonder why since every factory rifle that I have ever owned could be made good enough for that with a little bedding, trigger work, and a good load workup.
Boyd
 
I'LL DO IT. You guys pay for it. I'll need a lathe, a mill, tooling, guages, tuition at Murray state, A stack of test rifles, brass, bullets, powder, primers, etc. I have a computer to record the results on, so don't you all worry about that one. Give me a couple of years and I'll get back to you with the results.
This pretty much say it all. Lot of us test different things. But we are going to spend our time, money, and energy, to learn something that may actually help us win or build better rifles. To really thoroughly do a test takes a quality Benchrest rifle and shooter capable of seeing small accuracy changes. Everyone has different experiences, but I have built enough rifles on un trued actions to say that in a hunting rifle you probably will not shoot the difference. If we are talking competition rifles then there is only one way to build one, as good as you can.
 
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