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Accurate Arms 4350 vs IMR 4350 vs H4350 vs Shooters World 4350

CA_Shooter

nothing recently written about these comparisons so I started a new thread now that accurate 4350 is sourced from Canada

I've only been using H4350 for the past 6+ years for 6.5 creedmoor. Now, with the shortages, I bought some accurate 4350.

How does accurate 4350 compare to H4350 or even IMR 4350 for group sizes,, temp stability, etc now that the accurate 4350 is sourced from Canada? I read in previous posts it had been sourced from China and CZ.
 
smoketheclay said:
nothing recently written about these comparisons so I started a new thread now that accurate 4350 is sourced from Canada

I've only been using H4350 for the past 6+ years for 6.5 creedmoor. Now, with the shortages, I bought some accurate 4350.

How does accurate 4350 compare to H4350 or even IMR 4350 for group sizes,, temp stability, etc now that the accurate 4350 is sourced from Canada? I read in previous posts it had been sourced from China and CZ.
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A4350 is slower burning than H4350 and a little more temperature sensitive than H4350 too. I wouldn't expect A4350 to perform just like H4350, so one will have to make some adjustments. IMR4350 has a closer burn rate to H4350 but is quite a bit more temperature sensitive. Depending on the bullet and barrel you're working with, A4350 could be just the ticket to getting a little better performance than H4350. . . :rolleyes: ???
 
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Straightshooter1 said:
A4350 is slower burning than H4350 and a little less temperature sensitive than H4350 too. I wouldn't expect A4350 to perform just like H4350, so one will have to make some adjustments. IMR4350 has a closer burn rate to H4350 but is quite a bit less temperature sensitive. Depending on the bullet and barrel you're working with, A4350 could be just the ticket to getting a little better performance than H4350. . . :rolleyes: ???
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Wow better performance than H4350?

How about 6.5 creedmoor with 136 scenar Ls. I don't have temperature extremes. Lowest I'd shoot at the same time is maybe 30 degrees, max
 
Straightshooter1 said:
A4350 is slower burning than H4350 and a little less temperature sensitive than H4350 too. I wouldn't expect A4350 to perform just like H4350, so one will have to make some adjustments. IMR4350 has a closer burn rate to H4350 but is quite a bit less temperature sensitive. Depending on the bullet and barrel you're working with, A4350 could be just the ticket to getting a little better performance than H4350. . . :rolleyes: ???
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@Straightshooter1 where do you get the information about temperature sensitivity? According to information on the Hodgdon web site, Hodgdon H4350 is less temperature sensitive than the other two powders under discussion:

 
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smoketheclay said:
nothing recently written about these comparisons so I started a new thread now that accurate 4350 is sourced from Canada

I've only been using H4350 for the past 6+ years for 6.5 creedmoor. Now, with the shortages, I bought some accurate 4350.

How does accurate 4350 compare to H4350 or even IMR 4350 for group sizes,, temp stability, etc now that the accurate 4350 is sourced from Canada? I read in previous posts it had been sourced from China and CZ.
Click to expand...
Alliant Reloder17 has been a long time favorite for me in the 6.5 Creedmoor. It has always beat H4350 for velocity and (in my case) accuracy with most 140 class bullets. Accurate 4350 is right beside RL17 on the burn rate chart for what it's worth.
Accurate shows they developed load data at a max charge of 43.5 grains A4350 with 140 bullets.
Hodgdon stops at 40 H4350 and 41 of IMR4350 at slightly lower pressure.

Reloading Data Center

www.hodgdonreloading.com www.hodgdonreloading.com
While Hodgdon always seems to be a bit under max SAAMI pressure with their top end loads I notice Accurate is closer to the top level.
Your rifle will determine the accuracy you get and that will likely mean you need to do some testing to get into the proper node for best performance.
Remember that burn rate and pressure produced are two separate lines on the graph. A powder that seems the same on the burn rate may likely produce a totally different pressure curve.
 
smoketheclay said:
Wow better performance than H4350?

How about 6.5 creedmoor with 136 scenar Ls. I don't have temperature extremes. Lowest I'd shoot at the same time is maybe 30 degrees, max
Click to expand...

In a 32" barrel I've gotten 2,834 fps with 40.2 grs of H4350 pushing 140 gr Berger Hybrids, which is an accurate load for me and my QuickLoad app suggests it's a somewhat moderate load pressure @ ~54223 psi. When I plug in the A4350 with the same weight of powder it shows an estimated MV of 2904 fps with pressure right at the SAAMI max of 63091. Whether there's an accuracy node there for A4350, I duno. But maybe this can give you some ideas???

If I put the 136 ScenarL's in into the app it shows only a 5 fps increase in MV over my Bergers with the H4350 and with lower pressure for this bullet (as expected with a lighter projectile). When I then plug in the A4350 and keeping the same powder weight, the MV is calculated to be ~ 12 fps more with pressure well below the SAAMI max (like ~ 3000 psi lower with the A4350 with either projectile). :rolleyes: More to think about when comparing the two powders, huh? ;)
 
Straightshooter1 said:
In a 32" barrel I've gotten 2,834 fps with 40.2 grs of H4350 pushing 140 gr Berger Hybrids, which is an accurate load for me and my QuickLoad app suggests it's a somewhat moderate load pressure @ ~54223 psi. When I plug in the A4350 with the same weight of powder it shows an estimated MV of 2904 fps with pressure right at the SAAMI max of 63091. Whether there's an accuracy node there for A4350, I duno. But maybe this can give you some ideas???

If I put the 136 ScenarL's in into the app it shows only a 5 fps increase in MV over my Bergers with the H4350 and with lower pressure for this bullet (as expected with a lighter projectile). When I then plug in the A4350 and keeping the same powder weight, the MV is calculated to be ~ 12 fps more with pressure well below the SAAMI max (like ~ 3000 psi lower with the A4350 with either projectile). :rolleyes: More to think about when comparing the two powders, huh? ;)
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I haven't ventured into quickload yet but might end up there!
 
I've never used Shooter's World 4350; in fact, I've never heard of it. As for the others, I've used them all with similar results. Of course data is not interchangeable, but fairly close. I've gone exclusively to H4350 because it's more temperature resistant than the other two. That may not be a factor for some. If that's the case, take your pick and work up a good load.
 
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Accurate 4350 shot better in my 338 RCM than the others. Another option is Shooters World, SW4350.
It is the slowest burn rate of the 4350's and made in Europe. I recently threw together a forming load with it in my 284 and was impressed with it. Might be a good option with those heavy bullets in some chamberings.
 
Hey we left out Shooter's World SW4350 which I bought cause H4350 was not available . Any experience with it.
 
I've responded to several of these topics comparing the different 4350 powders , but had not expressed my thoughts here , due to this being referenced to a Creed . Since others have ; speaking of various calibers , I figured my .02 cents was valid . I use the Accurate , A-4350 in my Custom Mosin , .308 Open rifle because I've done some extensive testing using all three 4350 powders . What I found was the A -4350 was the most consistent in velocity from batch to batch , and it also had the best SD/ES numbers of all three . A -4350 gave me a little higher velocity than the others , and what seemed like a lower chamber pressure response . Since I have no way to scientifically test that , recoil tells me so . I shoot at Ben Avery year round , five to six times a month and have seen no issue with temp sensitivity , up to 115 degrees ambient . But you need to understand that my loads were developed in 100+ degrees . And this same load shot a 199 - 13x , a 197 - 11x , and a 189 - 5x at the SWN a couple years ago , without any load adjustment . In February . The A - 4350 is just as good as the other two 4350 powders , if it works in your rifle . And BTW , it has been being formulated in Canada for close to a decade , or longer . Don't know how long , for sure .
 
D-4297 said:
I've responded to several of these topics comparing the different 4350 powders , but had not expressed my thoughts here , due to this being referenced to a Creed . Since others have ; speaking of various calibers , I figured my .02 cents was valid . I use the Accurate , A-4350 in my Custom Mosin , .308 Open rifle because I've done some extensive testing using all three 4350 powders . What I found was the A -4350 was the most consistent in velocity from batch to batch , and it also had the best SD/ES numbers of all three . A -4350 gave me a little higher velocity than the others , and what seemed like a lower chamber pressure response . Since I have no way to scientifically test that , recoil tells me so . I shoot at Ben Avery year round , five to six times a month and have seen no issue with temp sensitivity , up to 115 degrees ambient . But you need to understand that my loads were developed in 100+ degrees . And this same load shot a 199 - 13x , a 197 - 11x , and a 189 - 5x at the SWN a couple years ago , without any load adjustment . In February . The A - 4350 is just as good as the other two 4350 powders , if it works in your rifle . And BTW , it has been being formulated in Canada for close to a decade , or longer . Don't know how long , for sure .
Click to expand...
My .284 loves A4350. After I had this rifle chambered in 284 win I found 10lb’s of RL17 thinking that was going to be the “go to” for that cartridge. Long story short I still can’t get as consistent results as A4350 with any of the many many tunes I’ve tried with RL17. I just had some A4350 sitting around and tried it. I think I’m going to just give up on the RL and try to source some more Accurate.
 
Got ten lbs. of the "new" A-4350 when it became available about a month ago , and I just ran out of my Old batch . Guess it's back to testing the "new" stuff to see if there's any difference . Startin to put me in mind of a dog chasin his tail .
 
SW4350 is Lovex SO70 made by Explosia A.S. in the Czech Republic. Until 19 years ago (when Western Powders bought the former Accurate Arms Co.) it was sold as Accurate Arms 4350 in the US. Older reloading manuals frequently included it alongside loads for IMR and Hodgdon 4350s under the designation of AA-4350, sometimes AAC-4350. Back then, it was regarded as the 'slowest' of the trio. After Western purchased AAC, the new owners changed their 'Accurate' brand procurement policy for extruded grades to General Dynamics in Canada (which also makes all IMR grades under contract to Hodgdon Powder Co. which owns IMR, including of course IMR-4350).

I did an exercise recently on alternatives to H4350 / H414, neither of which are now available in the UK or the EU for our handloaders due to regulatory changes (nor the IMR version either). That included Lovex SO70 aka SW4350. Rather to my surprise, a recently purchased 500g bottle simply failed to produce 4350 level MVs in my 7mm-08 test rig, nor come anywhere near QuickLOAD predictions. It was such as drop that when I returned from the range, I checked the powder shelf wondering if I'd inadvertently picked up a tin of the much slower burning Lovex SO71 (AAC-3100 in its older US persona), but no definitely not. I then went back to the AAC reloading manual of that era where the maximum load for AAC-4350 aka SO70 was getting on for 2gn higher and this gave a moderately compressed charge. Back to the range ..... still nowhere near H4350 MVs. (45.0gn H4350 2,784 fps; 46.0gn SO70/SW4350 2,690 fps 160gn Sierra TMK, 31-inch barrel).

Go figure! I don't know if the grade has been made slower burning over the years, or my tin came from an atypical production lot, or maybe because it was the week before Christmas and a touch chilly. Other than velocity, it performed excellently in terms of groups and ES values.

I can't comment on its current Accurate branded (Canadian) replacement as these powders aren't imported here. Since it comes from the same source as IMR-4350, I'd wonder if it was the same thing except maybe the faster or slower burning lots selected when tested by the General Dynamics Valleyfield factory laboratory techs.
 
Laurie said:
SW4350 is Lovex SO70 made by Explosia A.S. in the Czech Republic. Until 19 years ago (when Western Powders bought the former Accurate Arms Co.) it was sold as Accurate Arms 4350 in the US. Older reloading manuals frequently included it alongside loads for IMR and Hodgdon 4350s under the designation of AA-4350, sometimes AAC-4350. Back then, it was regarded as the 'slowest' of the trio. After Western purchased AAC, the new owners changed their 'Accurate' brand procurement policy for extruded grades to General Dynamics in Canada (which also makes all IMR grades under contract to Hodgdon Powder Co. which owns IMR, including of course IMR-4350).

I did an exercise recently on alternatives to H4350 / H414, neither of which are now available in the UK or the EU for our handloaders due to regulatory changes (nor the IMR version either). That included Lovex SO70 aka SW4350. Rather to my surprise, a recently purchased 500g bottle simply failed to produce 4350 level MVs in my 7mm-08 test rig, nor come anywhere near QuickLOAD predictions. It was such as drop that when I returned from the range, I checked the powder shelf wondering if I'd inadvertently picked up a tin of the much slower burning Lovex SO71 (AAC-3100 in its older US persona), but no definitely not. I then went back to the AAC reloading manual of that era where the maximum load for AAC-4350 aka SO70 was getting on for 2gn higher and this gave a moderately compressed charge. Back to the range ..... still nowhere near H4350 MVs. (45.0gn H4350 2,784 fps; 46.0gn SO70/SW4350 2,690 fps 160gn Sierra TMK, 31-inch barrel).

Go figure! I don't know if the grade has been made slower burning over the years, or my tin came from an atypical production lot, or maybe because it was the week before Christmas and a touch chilly. Other than velocity, it performed excellently in terms of groups and ES values.

I can't comment on its current Accurate branded (Canadian) replacement as these powders aren't imported here. Since it comes from the same source as IMR-4350, I'd wonder if it was the same thing except maybe the faster or slower burning lots selected when tested by the General Dynamics Valleyfield factory laboratory techs.
Click to expand...
Extremely useful history information. Thanks for posting.

Particularly interested because I still have the better part of a case of 1lb S070/AA4350, purchased waaay back from a company that's still here. I won't post the delivered price back then, because I don't want to increase the angst load on the public. But, here's another receipt: 4 (four) 8 pound jugs of new surplus IMR4895, total delivered (hazmat was $5.00) price for ALL four: $199. Still shooting some of that, too. Smells like new.
 
Nice post @Laurie .

…”I read in previous posts it had been sourced from China and CZ.”…

I can’t imagine where that comment in the OP about China comes from?

I realize folks like simple answers, but when it comes to smokeless powder the answers to their questions don’t look like simple three term equations or burn rate charts.

The models in the internal ballistics codes like QuickLoad and Gordon’s Reloading Tool, take constant input from updated batches just to come close to predictions against a background of all those different bullets and calibers.

These questions would be easy if there was only one bullet and one standard barrel, but when reality is dozens of bullet weights, barrels, and calibers, you can start to understand why the public is fed the burn rate chart. You either roll up your sleeves and study the topics behind those charts, or you settle for them and roll along. Keep in mind, powder companies and reloading manuals are publishing recipes, not predicted model values. That implies you can work without the thermodynamics and internal ballistics background and still do just fine.

My advice is if you are not satisfied with a burn rate chart answer, to slow down and study the method for putting together the internal ballistics models for a given powder. The reward for that effort will be an understanding and appreciation for all the work that goes into the model that is volunteered by hundreds of donors and then the work to blend all that input into a model.

The best place to try and compare what independent thoughts are with respect to a given powder’s characteristics, is to look at the powder models in the codes like QL and GRT. There you would see the current view of the temp stability and how it burns compared to some other powder. Folks like Laurie are very generous and answer questions like this all the time, but if you want answers to the next and the next, all you need to do is dedicate a little time with one or both of those programs. YMMV
 
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