Accuracy VS velocities

[savagedasher]

Went to the range Friday with a friend .
He was shooting 600 yards with a tail wind and a bad heat mirage . He had two 5 shot targets Both were around 5" . I ask him how was the hundred he said good all the bullets were touching . He insisted his tuner was set right . So I turns it and said now it isn't . We started with the point of aim reference . 10 shot later with the references from the point of aim. He had two two shot in one hole each . Went back to 600 first target was 2.600 the next was 2.48
My belief is if it didn't shoot at 600 it don't shoot at 100 also. Larry

 

[dmoran]

Went to the range Friday with a friend .
He was shooting 600 yards with a tail wind and a bad heat mirage . He had two 5 shot targets Both were around 5" . I ask him how was the hundred he said good all the bullets were touching . He insisted his tuner was set right . So I turns it and said now it isn't . We started with the point of aim reference . 10 shot later with the references from the point of aim. He had two two shot in one hole each . Went back to 600 first target was 2.600 the next was 2.48
My belief is if it didn't shoot at 600 it don't shoot at 100 also. Larry

Now how will you tune it smaller yet, or will just settle at that?
D

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have dabbled in short range shooting with a br and have always used flags, even at long range. This range in Missoula does not respond well to flags, I tired and was warned. Mirage is honest here but the flags made me shoot big. I do believe ppc shooting to be more of a wind reading game than 600 or 1k. You can actually read the conditions to 100 yards. (Although that is one hell of a skill to begin with. Maybe more of a skill than loading and shooting really.) So that makes it a much larger part of the game. At 600 and more so at 1k its a precision loading and tuning game more than a conditions game. Of course the better you can read conditions the better you can shoot but nobody can read all of the conditions out to 1k. And while a good shooter can win a short range match with unsorted cases, bullets, primers, thrown charges, and what I consider a rougher tune. What I have seen at 1k is, if your off .1 on powder, .002 on seating, or you have a slight difference in a bullet or case you will not compete with the best, there is no "window" at 1k. I just saw a picture of a nice little group in the .1s, I think it was 8 shots over 2 or 3 grains of powder, the shooter was just throwing charges looking for pressure max. I do think the short range competitor has superior wind reading skill as well as keeping a rifle in tune through different conditions, but the loading requirements to be competitive are very different. I do not think one discipline is superior to the other, just different. I agree with Bart that if a gun cant be tuned small at 100 it probably wont shoot great at 1k, but IMO the 100 yard tune will not be the 1k yard tune. My 1k tunes have never been small at 100, but I know I could have tuned them to be small at 100. It does happen where a 100 yard tune works, but thats more of an exception than the norm. Wish it wasnt the case, it would make things much easier.

At least this is what my experiences have led me to believe.

 

[Northridge]

I'm in Bart, bring it on Lol....

Shawn williams

 

[savagedasher]

The last short range shoot I competed in .
I was struggling with mirage conditions . You couldn't see bullet holes at 200.
This shooter next me said mirage was my friend .
Bart it is yours not mine lol Larry

 

[BartsBullets]

I'm in Bart, bring it on Lol....

Shawn williams

Awesome We have a Contender!

This will be The First Annual Precision Shooting Triathalon. The winner shall be crowned the

"Triple Threat King"

The matches will be:

IBS 1000 yard Nationals
IBS 600 yard Nationals
IBS 100/200 yard Nationals

Those are top matches for serious competitor! Besides Shawn are there any other brave souls that want to give it a try.

I'll be at all three!


Bart

 

[johara1]

I think I need to order popcorn for this one, Maybe more interesting if you had to shoot the same shell at all ranges??.. Jim

 

[dkhunt14]

Matt,


If your gun is shooting guns 1/2 inch to 3/4 at 100yards. They don't heal themselves and shoot better at 1000. Unless your gun was really shooting better then that and you couldn't accurately read the conditions. Otherwise You much have 1/2 or 3/4 MOA Gun at best.


Bart

Bart, I am talking 308 Baer and 300 WSM with 200 plus grains of bullet. How many big boomers can shoot 1/4 MOA 10 shot groups at 100 yards? They are not like a Dasher or 6BR. You need to come to the WORLD OPEN. Over 30,000 in prizes. Matt

 

[AWLEAPHART]

Anthony,

What chronograph? Only one way to know for sure!


Matt,

I tried it ONCE. A couple years back now, winter was tough and we were to busy at work to be running to Missoula on Fridays and/or Monday's. I found a load with like almost NO es, I mean 5 or less on several outings. It printed damn SMALL, like the kind where the black gets blacker, and the daylight gets just a tad lighter each shot. It shot like doggy doo at the matches lol. I'll just quit before ever trying it again!

I hear about it working out once in a while, and I would guess it to be possible. Hell, they have to land somewhere!

Bart,

You could really control conditions if you tune the ppc at 10 yards!

Tom

Bart,
Back in the winter months I was using a Red color Alph chrony I have had forever. I got a Caldwell Ballistic G2 and that's what I been using lately. Maybe I need to line them up and shoot through both of them next time I shoot.
Anthony

 

[kountryboy2]

[QUOTE="tom, post: 36975734, member:

Bart,

You could really control conditions if you tune the ppc at 10 yards!

Tom[/QUOTE]
Tom,that's why,Bart started shooting the grinch . He tunes it at 1 yard!

 

[dragman]

Bart, I am talking 308 Baer and 300 WSM with 200 plus grains of bullet. How many big boomers can shoot 1/4 MOA 10 shot groups at 100 yards? They are not like a Dasher or 6BR. You need to come to the WORLD OPEN. Overy 30,000 in prizes. Matt

I think the disconnect might be coming from guys that only shoot hybrid or short range cartridges. I don't shoot anything that small so I am NOT qualified to speak on them. I am qualified to tell you that I shoot with a hand full of people that all have guns that can shoot better at 100 yards than me with mine on most occasions with there 6X47's, 6XC, 6dashers, 6br's 6.5X47, etc, But they rarely can beat me at distance even when the conditions aren't in my favor. Every caliber has it's sweet spots or benefits.

 

[johara1]

I think the disconnect might be coming from guys that only shoot hybrid or short range cartridges. I don't shoot anything that small so I am NOT qualified to speak on them. I am qualified to tell you that I shoot with a hand full of people that all have guns that can shoot better at 100 yards than me with mine on most occasions with there 6X47's, 6XC, 6dashers, 6br's 6.5X47, etc, But they rarely can beat me at distance even when the conditions aren't in my favor. Every caliber has it's sweet spots or benefits.

Get on the same relay on paper and see, A good place like White horse, knowing when to yank the trigger is the deciding factor in the wind not the caliber Big guns DQ. also..... Jim

 

[dragman]

Get on the same relay on paper and see, A good place like White horse, knowing when to yank the trigger is the deciding factor in the wind not the caliber Big guns DQ. also..... Jim

That was kinda my point Jim. if the guy who can out shoot me at 100 pretty consistently can't beat me at 1000 on paper it's not just his superior wind reading ability that is making him shoot the better group short. sometimes the 100 yard shooter, gun, cartridge just doesn't translate.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Tom, dont you have a load that shoots .9" all vertical at 100?? The red gun?

 

[BartsBullets]

I have dabbled in short range shooting with a br and have always used flags, even at long range. This range in Missoula does not respond well to flags, I tired and was warned. Mirage is honest here but the flags made me shoot big. I do believe ppc shooting to be more of a wind reading game than 600 or 1k. You can actually read the conditions to 100 yards. (Although that is one hell of a skill to begin with. Maybe more of a skill than loading and shooting really.) So that makes it a much larger part of the game. At 600 and more so at 1k its a precision loading and tuning game more than a conditions game. Of course the better you can read conditions the better you can shoot but nobody can read all of the conditions out to 1k. And while a good shooter can win a short range match with unsorted cases, bullets, primers, thrown charges, and what I consider a rougher tune. What I have seen at 1k is, if your off .1 on powder, .002 on seating, or you have a slight difference in a bullet or case you will not compete with the best, there is no "window" at 1k. I just saw a picture of a nice little group in the .1s, I think it was 8 shots over 2 or 3 grains of powder, the shooter was just throwing charges looking for pressure max. I do think the short range competitor has superior wind reading skill as well as keeping a rifle in tune through different conditions, but the loading requirements to be competitive are very different. I do not think one discipline is superior to the other, just different. I agree with Bart that if a gun cant be tuned small at 100 it probably wont shoot great at 1k, but IMO the 100 yard tune will not be the 1k yard tune. My 1k tunes have never been small at 100, but I know I could have tuned them to be small at 100. It does happen where a 100 yard tune works, but thats more of an exception than the norm. Wish it wasnt the case, it would make things much easier.

At least this is what my experiences have led me to believe.

Alex,

I agree with every word you wrote. But I've been doing this long enough that I can sort Benchrest BS from from what works.


When I started shooting 600 yard matches I was given advice by some very top shooters. I'll never forget when they set me down and said, "You can't use windflags because they don't work. We've tried and there's no correlation between the flags and where the bullet goes." That my friends is Benchrest BS. It's not that they were trying to lead me wrong. It's just that they don't have a lot of experience reading flags. In light or steady conditions the playing field levels out. However if you let it get switchy or conditions that Push and let off. Guys come off the line scratching their head wondering why their last shot nearly went off the plate. It happened at St Louis this weekend.

As far as flags at deep creek. I promise you that if you space three of them out to say 150 yards and you start shooting while they are blowing left to right. Then they swing right to left and you shoot. You aren't going to like it!

I'll throw this thought out there...it's a lot easier for a short range guy to transition into Mid and Long range shooting then a Long range shooter transitioning to short range. Short Range guys can read mirage, and wind flags and they learn to adjust their load on the fly. They know how to tune and how to test. All that's required is to tighten up on the reloading end of things to move to the 600 yard or 1000 yard bench competition. On the other hand All the meticulous reloading in the world won't save you at a short range match.


As for tuning at at 100 yards. I said it can get close. Then it just needs some tweaking at distance. If your gun shoots poorly 100 but great 1000. You're doing something wrong at 100.


Bart

 

[BartsBullets]

[QUOTE="tom, post: 36975734, member:

Bart,

You could really control conditions if you tune the ppc at 10 yards!

Tom

Tom,that's why,Bart started shooting the grinch . He tunes it at 1 yard![/QUOTE]
Kountryboy,

I switched to the Grinch because it nearly tunes itself!

Bart

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Bart, I disagree (kind of). I had smiley flags but could not see them, so I made wind socks that were white nylon and about 4-5' long. They pivoted on a point like the smileys. I would set them all the way out to 600. Every 100 yards or so. When I shot at Manatee they worked perfectly. At deep creek I can shoot a relay and think man I nailed that and it would be 12" wide The mirage at the target is what I had to watch. Now, maybe its because the bullet height is so much higher than the flags? We do have a cut for the last 300 yards that lets wind cross. Maybe if I had flags only there they would be true. I could not see them anyhow. We had a good palma guy here tell me my flag wouldnt work, at least where I had them anyways. I will eventually run smoke bombs down this range and see whats going on....

 

[johara1]

Jim,

Don't forget how everything unfolded the weekend you agged 2.xxx/50.000 for 4 targets. If you look really close back at our pm exchanges, you'll see it wasn't actually the 100 yards "zero's" load that did that for you. If you recall, it was the same powder bullet combination, but a different seating depth and neck tension. I believe you told me that particular load was in the "one's". But yet it did something at 1000 that will be damn hard to match! I don't think any of us are saying that a combination that shoots hideous at 100 will somehow be great at 1000. I think we could certainly rule out certain combinations, but of course we can do that at 1000 also.

Tom

Tom, you need to go back to that article. My gun fell apart the match before, the glue came loose. I came home and pillared it and rebeded it and reglued it. I also ran the reamer in and opened up the free bore diameter and with the same shells that were shooting .1 went into the zeros for three groups. So I opened the the free bore diameter on the other gun, same shells it went into the zero's at 100 also then went down to VA. 1000...... Jim

 

[BartsBullets]

Bart, I disagree (kind of). I had smiley flags but could not see them, so I made wind socks that were white nylon and about 4-5' long. They pivoted on a point like the smileys. I would set them all the way out to 600. Every 100 yards or so. When I shot at Manatee they worked perfectly. At deep creek I can shoot a relay and think man I nailed that and it would be 12" wide The mirage at the target is what I had to watch. Now, maybe its because the bullet height is so much higher than the flags? We do have a cut for the last 300 yards that lets wind cross. Maybe if I had flags only there they would be true. I could not see them anyhow. We had a good palma guy here tell me my flag wouldnt work, at least where I had them anyways. I will eventually run smoke bombs down this range and see whats going on....

Alex

I'll repeat this. Three flags spaced over 150 yards ( not wind socks it takes too much to move them). Let the wind blow left to right. Fire a shot. Let the flags blow right to left fire a shot. I promise you they will be a zip code apart. Are flags the best choice for Deep Creek. Maybe not, I know shooters can do awfully well reading Mirage only.

Personally, I set out flags at all the matches I go to. I try to pick a condition where the flags agree with the mirage. If that condition changes I'll either stop my run or hold. My preference is to "pump and dump" 5 record shots in 10 to 12 seconds. But I'll stop if I have to.

Bart

 

[johara1]

Bart, You would need some 100' or longer poles at Whitehorse. You may need to get back in a chopper again to set them at 1000... LOl... Jim