A question about electronic powder dispensers...

[CatShooter]

I throw light and trickle - and I don't own an electronic powder dispenser.

I have heard of the long waits to throw charges and wondered if one can be used as a trickler... ergo, you set it for the charge (45.0 gr), tare the pan, then throw 44.7 in the pan, put the pan in the dispenser, and hit "start" (or whatever to go button says), and the dispenser does the last 0.3 +/- ??

Will they work in that manor??

 

[FatBoy]

I have a charge master auto dispenser and the initial startup would be too fast to trickle such a small amount, at least with extruded powder.

FWIW, 29.5gr Varget takes about 20 seconds. 48.x gr H4350 takes about 30 seconds. I double weigh ( check and adjust if needed on a 5-0-5) so this isn't an issue for me as I am usually seating when the 1500 is beeping at me that the next charge is ready. Probably not as fast as a manual drop and trickle but you can get in the zone and knock out a round every 25-30 seconds with prepped cases.

I would LOVE to cut that time in half.

 

[amlevin]

If I understand the operation of the Chargemaster correctly it undergoes a "Zeroing" function when the pan is first placed on the scale. I watch mine and it delays until the LCD reads Zero before dispensing.

If this is correct then your method of pre-charging the pan wouldn't work.


What I have done to speed the process for large charges (in my 30-06 for example) is to place the pan, let the dispensing begin, then add a "Lee Dipper" full of powder to the pan. When I add this the Chargemaster then goes into trickle mode.

I've experimented with the dipper size so I don't cause the Chargemaster to over throw at the end.

It definitely speeds the process for large charges. Depending on powder, I try to pick a dipper that holds approx 30 grains for a charge of 50-60 grains.

 

[chkunz]

I had a "friend" that talked me into buying an electronic dispenser ten years ago. The set up and calibration was so complicated that I had to develop my own procedure to keep it straight. The biggest problems I had was the time it takes and the tolerance on the charge when it got done bumping and grinding. I went back to throwing charges from my powder measure just under the desired charge and then trickling to the final charge on the beam balance scales. The electronic unit is back in the box collecting dust on my bench. I would give it away if I could find someone that deserves the pain.

 

[RLP]

Catshooter, to answer your question. Yes it will work that way but you still only the have a tenth +/- with the chargmaster scale. I have had up to 2 tenths +/- once in a while using coarse powder ( varget, 4350, etc) Using ball powders, tolerances are much closer to your charge weight. Since I have went to the FX 120 scale, I have almost eliminated the vertical problems that I had using the chargmaster and trickling up an the Dillon balance beam scale that I have. The problem with the chargemaster is the scale, not the dispenser for accuracy of weight. What I like about it in my way of doing things is the timing. When I finish with the trickling it has another one ready for me. I usually set it up 1 tenth under and and I usually only add 1-4 kernels to be spot on.....Not always but most of the time. The set up works for me but everyone is different. Bob

 

[CatShooter]

Confusalating - RLP says it will work, and other guys say it won't

OK... first, this question is not about other kinds of scales like lab scales (FX-120, etc) that read to 0.0000001 grains - I am only interested in powder dispensers designed and marketed to the handloading community...

OK, Would there be any interest in a similar unit, that would only do the end dispensing - so you tare the pan when you turn it on, set your desired finish weight (i.e. 45gr), and then throw a few 1/10s light and let the device finish it off while you seat (or what-ever)?

I have good measures (Redding BR-30) and a great beam, but I hate using the trickler... especally when I haev 200 rounds (or more) to load.

 

[Jdne5b]

Confusalating - RLP says it will work, and other guys say it won't

OK... first, this question is not about other kinds of scales like lab scales (FX-120, etc) that read to 0.0000001 grains - I am only interested in powder dispensers designed and marketed to the handloading community...

OK, Would there be any interest in a similar unit, that would only do the end dispensing - so you tare the pan when you turn it on, set your desired finish weight (i.e. 45gr), and then throw a few 1/10s light and let the device finish it off while you seat (or what-ever)?

I have good measures (Redding BR-30) and a great beam, but I hate using the trickler... especally when I haev 200 rounds (or more) to load.

In my experience, it will work. But. It's not accurate enough (Chargemaster). It doesnt poses the fine motor skills, or precision scale to only trickle a couple kernals of Varget or other powder.

So, yes. I would be interested in a system where I throw a charge that is .1 to .2 gr low, and it trickles up for me. But it better be accurate to the .02 grain or better.

My Chargemaster drifts more than my Gempro, and often reads my target weight but is really +- .2 gr. That's not acceptable

 

[zipollini]

Might want to take a look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF-jL2kJRUc#t=63

and this

http://omegapowdertrickler.com/Operation.html

 

[Erik Cortina]

I throw light and trickle - and I don't own an electronic powder dispenser.

I have heard of the long waits to throw charges and wondered if one can be used as a trickler... ergo, you set it for the charge (45.0 gr), tare the pan, then throw 44.7 in the pan, put the pan in the dispenser, and hit "start" (or whatever to go button says), and the dispenser does the last 0.3 +/- ??

Will they work in that manor??

It will not work with a chargemaster, I don't know about the others. The accuracy of the Chargemaster is +- .1 gr, so you will not gain much. Also, with the Chargemaster, it has to be at 0 to start dispensing, if your charge is thrown .1 heavy or light, it will never dispense.

I use an omega trickler, but be careful trying to use it with a Chargemaster. I have trickled 3 grains of powder on to the Chargemaster and it never registered the weight because I did it very slowly.

 

[CatShooter]

Might want to take a look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF-jL2kJRUc#t=63

and this

http://omegapowdertrickler.com/Operation.html

Thanks, but neither of those meet my description.

 

[Jdne5b]

Also, with the Chargemaster, it has to be at 0 to start dispensing, if your charge is thrown .1 heavy or light, it will never dispense.

You can hit the "disp" button to make it start, but often times it will overshoot your target using this method, especially if only .1 off your target.

Set Chargemaster to dispense 30gr. Put 28gr on the scale, and hit "Disp". It will dispense up to 30 gr.

Still, not a very accurate solution.

 

[CatShooter]

It will not work with a chargemaster, I don't know about the others. The accuracy of the Chargemaster is +- .1 gr, so you will not gain much. Also, with the Chargemaster, it has to be at 0 to start dispensing, if your charge is thrown .1 heavy or light, it will never dispense.

I use an omega trickler, but be careful trying to use it with a Chargemaster. I have trickled 3 grains of powder on to the Chargemaster and it never registered the weight because I did it very slowly.

Thanks Eric... interesting comment.

The sense I have gotten over the years is that people are attracted to the concept, but are generally not happy with how any of them work when they get down to it.

Usually it is the time it takes (hence, RCBS's reprogram instructions, and debates on whether MacDonald's or Wendy's straws work the best), the lack of accuracy, and the distrust of the final weighed amount when the scale says it is right on.

 

[Erik Cortina]

It will not work with a chargemaster, I don't know about the others. The accuracy of the Chargemaster is +- .1 gr, so you will not gain much. Also, with the Chargemaster, it has to be at 0 to start dispensing, if your charge is thrown .1 heavy or light, it will never dispense.

I use an omega trickler, but be careful trying to use it with a Chargemaster. I have trickled 3 grains of powder on to the Chargemaster and it never registered the weight because I did it very slowly.

Thanks Eric... interesting comment.

The sense I have gotten over the years is that people are attracted to the concept, but are generally not happy with how any of them work when they get down to it.

Usually it is the time it takes (hence, RCBS's reprogram instructions, and debates on whether MacDonald's or Wendy's straws work the best), the lack of accuracy, and the distrust of the final weighed amount when the scale says it is right on.

I use a Chargemaster to throw .1 gr. low and then I transfer the powder to my Sortorious GD 503 and trickle up with an Omegra trickler. I can tell you that most of the charges from the Chargemaster are within .1 gr., but there are a few that are .2 gr. off. The Chargemaster is accurate enough even for match shooting but like I said before, you can not trickle it because it will not register it. I was able to get my Midrange/Long range High Master F-Class classifications loading with a Chargemaster, so I know it's accurate enough, as long as you are in the middle of the node and not on the edge.

 

[Dos XX]

A Chargemaster like dispenser with a FX120i scale would be a great machine. I do wonder if the electric motor on the dispenser could cause interference with the lab scale?

I use a powder thrower and then trickle with an Omega. The electrical vibrator of the Omega doesn't seem to cause interference with the FX120i, so maybe the Chargemaster type motor wouldn't either.

 

[amamnn]

I use a PACT unit which I like a lot for doing a lot of precise rifle loads at one sitting. IMHO it, and all the other units I have seen would not really function in a way that would be economical or useful to you, as you are only wanting to do half of what these machines were built to do. To make things even more wierd, you want to start in the middle of the charge cycle. These devices typically use two tubes to drop the load; one is a fairly fast drop and the other is in effect a trickler to finish off the drop. The scale/dispenser interface wants to start at 0 gr. and work up to the target load. Starting somewhere in the middle only confuses the "brain" at least, in my dispenser.

 

[BoydAllen]

Slightly off topic but related, and hopefully useful... If you pick up another scale pan for your Chargemaster, and match its weight exactly to the one that came with the unit, you can switch pans the second that a charge is finished, then if you seat your bullets as your unit is dispensing the next charge, the lost time will be minimized. As you probably already know, they can be reprogrammed in a manner that significantly reduces the time it takes to dispense a charge. One short range benchrest shooter that uses them do load in the limited time between matches took the direct approach, and uses two, alternating.

 

[M-61]

Somewhat similar to the above and somewhat off topic also.
When the Chargemaster dispenses I remove the pan and just pour it in another (of any weight) and replace the chargemaster pan on the platen. That way it is starting to dispense very quickly. At least by the time I have filled the empty case. After the third round is loaded it becomes sort of a choreographed routine that flows (no pun intended) rather smoothly.

 

[rox]

wondered if one can be used as a trickler... ergo, you set it for the charge (45.0 gr), tare the pan, then throw 44.7 in the pan, put the pan in the dispenser, and hit "start" (or whatever to go button says), and the dispenser does the last 0.3 +/- ??

Will they work in that manor??

I have done this in the past and it did work, but with one unexpected benefit and one drawback.

The benefit was this: because the trickler tube never runs at high speed the powder layer remains thin so clumping is avoided and the resulting charges actually deviate less from the mean.

The drawback was this: because the balance never sits with a stable reading near zero it is unable to zero-track, and drift can accumulate without correction.

I speculate that there may be a solution to the drift, but it is only theoretical as I no longer have a Chargemaster since building my own machine. The idea is to zero the balance without the pan present. The target weight would be entered as the [weight_of_pan + desired_charge_weight]. For example, if the pan weighed 150 grains and you want a 45.5 grain charge you would enter 195.5 grains. This way, while the pan is removed from the balance the balance is stable near zero and able to correct drift. It would be essential to only use manual mode, since the automatic mode would start dispensing when zero is seen (i.e. with no pan).

Charts of the data are available here:

ChargeMaster dispensing: Normal Mode.

ChargeMaster dispensing: Pre-Charge Mode.

..

 

[mac86951]

What I've found with my Chargemaster is Drift is reduced by never turning the unit off. It needs to be powered ON for ~1hour before use to make the measures more stable.

As an Electrical Engineer, I understand how difficult it is to make an electronic powder measure, and thus here is the algorithm of how the RCBS chargemaster works: These settings are changeable, but owner beware there is no going back to standard, so best to remember the original settings.

Math used for each throw level: X= Target weight - current weight

if X is large, the RCBS unit spins at fast rate
if X is moderate, the RCBS unit spins at a medium rate
if X is small the RCBS unit trickles in discrete pulses.

I've found that the biggest trouble is with the Discrete pulses and the way the unit is programmed.

Discrete pulses: This depends on the powder used, I use lots of Varget, so this can and will cause a small "avalanche" of powder out of the unit, which means 0.1-0.3gr dispenses. I've done the straw mod to reduce this, but it doesn't eliminate it. A had trickler would be nice to have.

Unit Programming: We are taking a continuous measurement (weight) and rounding it to +/- 0.1gr units. The RCBS scale alone will show you the error in this system. Example: 24.02gr will show as 24.0 (no problem right), but so will 23.95, as will 24.04gr.

To make the scale very accurate, hand trickle to the point where the scale changes (from example above, the point where 23.9 becomes 24.0 is a repeatable point). The powder dispenser however, will at best be +/- 0.1gr and that depends on how the powder trickles. The dispensing programming error is that as the powder increases, when it trickles it looks simply for your set charge. Example: When at 23.9gr, if it dispenses 0.3gr in an avalanche, the unit will display 24.0, count the charge, and then 10-12s later it will resume the scale reading showing 24.2gr.

Instead, I back up each dispense with my 505 scale. One could easily shoot for 24.2gr load, set the Chargemaster to 24.1 and hand trickle in the 505 for the final load.

A 505 is a balance scale, as long as I set it up correctly I can get more resolution of charge weights than that on the Chargemaster. Instead of rounding to a 0.1gr line, the 505 (or other balance scale) will show you when you are between the lines.

As an EE, I really do like electronic powder dispensers and I use mine regularly, but I also understand the challenges of how to build one for the masses that works safely. +/- 0.1gr might be fine for the majority of shooters, but when you are near the pressure limits, it might be a big difference. Knowing your equipment and Caution are the key principals to reloading, and this is no different with an electonic device.

-Mac

 

[amlevin]

Slightly off topic but related, and hopefully useful... If you pick up another scale pan for your Chargemaster, and match its weight exactly to the one that came with the unit, you can switch pans the second that a charge is finished, then if you seat your bullets as your unit is dispensing the next charge, the lost time will be minimized. As you probably already know, they can be reprogrammed in a manner that significantly reduces the time it takes to dispense a charge. One short range benchrest shooter that uses them do load in the limited time between matches took the direct approach, and uses two, alternating.

I never have found the "delay" to be a limiting factor. I've "souped up" my Chargemaster using the tips posted by the South African shooter and have minimized the dispense time. The only charge I really have to wait for is the first one. Pour into the case, seat the bullet, measure the results, put the finished case in the box and "beeep", next charge is ready. Might be a PITA for those who are used to "charging" an entire tray using their Harrell/Culver powder dispensers but I prefer to charge and finish each round so any interruption doesn't leave a bunch of "charged but uncapped" cases in the block.

As for the +/- .1 tolerance of the scale? Not an issue for my shooting. Maybe for the 1K shooters but not everyone does so.