90gr VLD - barrel set up?

[JustinP]

Hi guys

Am thinking of chambering a 7" twist, 30" match .224" barrel for the Berger 90gr VLD

Can anyone provide any advice on what freebore will be necessary to be able to seat the bullets far enough out so that case capacity isn't lost? Ideally, I'd want to keep the base of the bullet at the case neck/shoulder junction.

Cheers

 

[JERRYHM]

Contact Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool.

He makes a reamer designed for the Berger 90 vld.

 

[cmillard]

i have successfully shot berger 90 vlds out of my long range ar-15. that barrel has a match chamber (compass lake match). these 90s were seated out fairly far. i think if you went with a Wilde chamber or even a NATO chamber, you would have sufficient boiler room for that bullet. wise choice on the 7" twist also. give 5R rifling a try also.

 

[BradY]

What caliber will you be shooting from?

Ive shot them in a 22BR and found about 25 thou jam best. So set your reamer up to allow yourself to touch the rifling.

At approx 2950fps in a 1:7 twist 29"bbl, they shot around the 1/3MOA mark at 100m with nice cluster groups. They bucked wind very very well too!

 

[JustinP]

It'll be in a 223. Bit of a gamble but we'll see how it goes

 

[manitou210]

Justin I just checked one of my 90gr VLD in 223 rem OAL is 2.6030
these bullets have been mep plate trimmed and then pointed,
I used the PT Match reamer and then had smith lenghten throat so bullet was enough in case to hold well. I will not use the PT MATCH reamer again. Maybe the Wylde ?? talking with JGS now.
I have shot my Barnard action 30" 1-7 twist app 1800 rounds.and will rechamber and have another new barrel to set up as well. There are about 4 guys in Ottawa Canada shooting customs in 223 rem all 1/7 twist one fellow shooting 1/8 Krieger it does not shoot the 90 vld but was doing okay with 90gr Match bergers and really shoots the 80gr Bergers, non of these guns would shoot the 90gr Sierra,s seems they need a 6.5 twist.
You will need a quality digital scale to load as 1/10 gr powder gives you vertical problems. I don,t post loads on internet but would be glad to help you if you pm me. You will run with the .308 in F/TR class
manitou

 

[Laurie]

Justin I just checked one of my 90gr VLD in 223 rem OAL is 2.6030
these bullets have been mep plate trimmed and then pointed,
I used the PT Match reamer and then had smith lenghten throat so bullet was enough in case to hold well. I will not use the PT MATCH reamer again. Maybe the Wylde ?? talking with JGS now.
I have shot my Barnard action 30" 1-7 twist app 1800 rounds.and will rechamber and have another new barrel to set up as well. There are about 4 guys in Ottawa Canada shooting customs in 223 rem all 1/7 twist one fellow shooting 1/8 Krieger it does not shoot the 90 vld but was doing okay with 90gr Match bergers and really shoots the 80gr Bergers, non of these guns would shoot the 90gr Sierra,s seems they need a 6.5 twist.
You will need a quality digital scale to load as 1/10 gr powder gives you vertical problems. I don,t post loads on internet but would be glad to help you if you pm me. You will run with the .308 in F/TR class
manitou

Very similar to my set-up that is working very well. The chamber was cut with a PT&G reamer to our spec - can't tell you the exact freebore but it's around a quarter inch. COAL with the Berger 90gn VLD in the lands by 0.015" was 2.700" originally, slightly longer now after 1,200 rounds and a little bit of throat erosion. Dave Kiff will have the reamer design on his books somewhere (ordered by Vince Bottomley of Lancashire, UK early this year).

The barrel is a True-Flite (New Zealand make) 6-groove 1-7" 31" Heavy Palma profile. With recent manufacture Lapua Match brass (30.6gn H20 water capacity), PMC SRM primer (Wolf to youze guys), 25.2gn Re15 Lot 75109 gives 2,900 fps MV. Accuracy is sub 0.4-MOA and the rifle has shot three 1,000 yd groups under 10-inches in a UKBRA registered match, the best of them under five inches at Diggle Ranges in the north of England, 1,000 ASL in an exposed and windy valley. The smallest group was the second smallest group of the match by a hair.

The rifle is actually built for F/TR using a secondhand Savage 12 PT action in a McRees modular stock. Weighing right up on the 8.25kg F/TR limit with Versa-Pod bipod, it has negligible recoil - I follow the shot through as if shooting a rimfire keeping the crosshairs on the target centre. Primers do crater badly through extrusion into the bolt-face firing pin hole at the loads I'm running. I doubt if you could get away with them in North American summer temperatures. Yet again, I have the right actions and cartridges but mated incorrectly. (My .308W F-Class rifle has a Barnard Model P which would handle the small primers without fuss.)

The round count is now around 1,300 and it is holding its accuracy - 99.11v ex 100.20v (20 shots - like Canada, our Bull scores 5 in the UK) in a 300yd F-Class comp a fortnight ago with winds varying by up to three-quarters MOA (beat all the 'Open' shooters too, the best of them by a single V-Bull, but I wouldn't expect to repeat that at 600yd, never mind 1,000).

I got 17th F/TR individual place in the F-Class European Championship at Bisley three weeks ago (2+15 at 800; 2 x 2+15 at 900, and 2 x 2+20 at 1,000yd) and shot in the GB F/TR 'Blue' team which took Silver, right in the middle of the .308W shooters scores (2+15 each at 900 and 1,000yd). I don't think I lose anything at all to .308W users; they think I'm mad and I'm the only national league F/TR competitor to use the cartridge in the UK.

I agree completely with the Canucks re powder charge consistency. I've bought an Acculab VIC123 at great expense, and handloading takes forever - .308W is a much easier to load and more forgiving number.

One warning - the 90gn Berger BT Long-Range produces much higher pressures than the same company's VLD. I'm running them at 0.6gn less Re15, 24.6gn with CCI-450s, and have decided they're still a little too warm in terms of rate of primer pocket expansion at that. I have Lapua cases on their 4th firing now with VLDs at 2,900 fps that are still in good fettle and will be retired from match use after one more loading. I have tried CCI-BR4 primers and my lot at any rate was 'hotter' than either the PMC / Wolf or CCI-450 giving higher MVs, larger MV spreads and larger groups.

The rifle spec and build was written up by myself and Vince Bottomley a few issues ago, and a two piece feature on loading 90s in .223R is on:

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/

part 1 in the existing (November 2010 issue); part 2 to be in the December issue that goes live on or about 1st December and also has a special report on the F-Class European
Championship weekend. (It's a free 100 page + online magazine!)

I like it. I'm convinced. I just have to convince another 100 or so UK F-Class competitors!

Laurie,
York, England

 

[Taildrag15X]

Thanks again for sharing the knowledge Laurie, I can't thank you enough for all the info....I enjoy the heck out of my copy of your set up. I haven't went with any R-15 yet but do plan on some testing next spring with it as Varget has been getting the job done so far.

 

[cmillard]

laurie, have you given aa2520, vv n540 or imr 4007ssc a try with the 90s in that rifle?

 

[Laurie]

Hi Cole.

AA-2520 no in this rifle. I got very high MVs with the 75gn A-Max and 80gn SMK from it in a 26-inch barreled AR15 (manually, not gas-operated) with Lilja 1-8" twist barrel. Accuracy was quite good too, but it left a really nasty fouling on case-necks that puts me off it. I worry about pressure spikes too with ball powders in this cartridge if you push the loads.

N540 pierced primers with 90s in the Savage F/TR at 100 fps lower MVs than N550 or Re15 so was dropped. It gave very good accuracy if lower MVs were acceptable, so might be OK for shorter range matches. 24.7gn was over the limit in my rifle with both bullets and I abandoned tests at that point pulling bullets from the remaining rounds.

IMR-4007SSC is a bit too bulky even with a 2.7" COAL. I also found MVs seem to plateau at around 24.6gn with the VLD and won't rise any higher, but MVs were only a little down on Re15 and N550 at around 2,875 fps. Groups were good, but ES was on the large side (in practice brass). I'm going to give it another try next year in match prepped brass and also try the CCI-BR4 primer as it may need a hotter model to give its best. I think it has promise, but can't say more at this stage.

I couldn't get Varget earlier this year as there has been an even bigger Varget drought in the UK than USA. I eventually persuaded some friends to part with four tins and managed a preliminary run a month ago of 9 x 3-round batches with the BT Long-Range bullet. Nearly all 9 groups were around 0.3" and ES values small, but only three rounds of course - but still very promising, especially as rounds used my old practice and not-prepped brass. Charges after 24.3gn didn't give any more velocity (2,834 fps) although they didn't show any pressure signs and still grouped well. ES rose though. I'll try this powder with the 90 VLDs before next season, as I like the 'Extreme' no temperature sensitivity, and Re15 is also a powder that's often in short supply here too, so it gives an alternative.

Re17 gave high MVs, but also not very good groups and velocity spreads, so it's not a goer I reckon.

One other issue I forgot in my last post. Despite the drilled flash-holes in Lapua brass, my lot had around 96 / 97% very consistent, but the others undersize which would have affected pressures and MVs.

Mike - always great to hear from another convert! There's not a lot of us about, outside of Canada and Australia anyway.

Laurie,
York, England

 

[cmillard]

laurie, do you think a 5R profile rifling and say a.218 or .219 or vise versa would help with velocity? also, was kind of wondering if nitriding the barrel with speed things up a bit--i guess the barrels are easier to clean after this treatment. Just curious.

 

[skeetlee]

Sound just for curiosity what does a 5 groove barrel do that a 4 or 6 grove doesn't do? Am i missing out on something here? Lee

 

[Laurie]

laurie, do you think a 5R profile rifling and say a.218 or .219 or vise versa would help with velocity? also, was kind of wondering if nitriding the barrel with speed things up a bit--i guess the barrels are easier to clean after this treatment. Just curious.

Cole,

to be honest, I haven't a clue. I ordered the True-Flite I have on the rifle because it was available quickly off the shelf (the 1-7.5" Bartlein I originally ordered for the rifle some 10 months ago finally arrived a few days back) and this New Zealand company makes really good shooting barrels. I never saw the blank as it went straight from the importer to the gunsmith, so don't know what the bore / groove specs are. (Our Aussie and NZ friends are very clued up on long-range .223R so usually know what works and what doesn't.) A second blank to the same spec has just arrived too, so I'll pass the details on when I pick it up.

It has six grooves. Whether this is a major factor in it performing so well or not - again I simply don't know. The 5R form seems sensible as these very long for calibre bullets need as much support as they can get .......... but whether it really makes a difference in practice, again who knows until there is a lot more experience as to what works or doesn't. (If any Australian .223R TR / Palma shooter is reading this, collective views from 'down-under' would be very welcome.)

None of us in the UK has any experience of nitriding, at least so far as I've heard so far.

Laurie,
York, England

 

[Laurie]

Sound just for curiosity what does a 5 groove barrel do that a 4 or 6 grove doesn't do? Am i missing out on something here? Lee

Lee,

the original 5R form was developed by Boots Obermeyer maybe 20 years ago and his barrels have a reputation for shooting very well. I've read that his barrels with this rifling form went onto a lot of US military sniper rifles and gave outstanding performance and life.

The theory goes that an odd number of grooves supports the bullets better and imparts less stress on them as there is a land opposite each groove. The Enfield rifling form used in British military rifles for decades had five grooves. Over here, Geoff Kolbe at Border Barrels (who learned the business working for Boots Obermeyer) is a fan of 5R although he offers conventional four-groove too and I imagine they account for most sales here.

The Obermeyer, Border and Bartlein etc 5R forms also have radiused grooves like a very broad shallow 'V' which is again said to stress the bullet less as well as coppering less and being easier to clean. Again, not a new idea as many top quality 'contract Mausers' made before WW1 had something like this.

They have their fans. If well made, they work well. They do seem easier to clean, but whether they perform better / worse and/or last a shorter / longer time than conventionally rifled barrels - well who really knows?

One downside (I don't know how serious) is that many gunsmiths groan when a 3 or 5-groove barrel is specified as they are harder to 'clock' or set up centrally in the lathe compared to an even groove number form where the distance betweeen opposing lands is measured to identify the precise centre of the bore.

Laurie,
York, England