Im looking build a 1500yd gun that is still pratical to own. I love the BC of the 7mm bullets but im stuck on what case to use. Iv heard good thing about both these rounds but still not for sure. What is better the STW or WSM? Or do I need something other than a 7mm all around????
7mm STW or 7mm WSM? Can I get 1500yds from either?
- Thread starter USMC50Gunner
- Start date
I read about shooters shooting Berger 180 VLDs obtaining 2900+ with a 7mmWSM through a 26" barrel frequently ?
A surprising number of cartridges will perform out to this range if the rifle is optimally throated and bullets are carefully chosen. UK and British Commonwealth 'Match Rifle' shooters use the .308W with 190-220gn bullets routinely to 1,200yd and rather more exceptionally at 1,500yd at the Coonabarrabran Ranges in New South Wales, Australia. This doesn't make .308W the ideal 1,500yd cartridge though!
The Berger 180gn 7mm VLD has a G7 BC of 0.337, exceptionally high. An MV of 2,900 fps sees it retain 1,177 fps at 1,500yd in 'standard' ballistics conditions - less in cold moist air with high atmospheric pressure, more in hot, dry air up a 5,000 ft mountain. So it would normally remain supersonic (1,122 fps under standard conditions), but not by a lot, and right in the turbulent transonic speed zone (1.3M down to 0.95M) that can cause bullets to lose speed faster or behave other than ballistic tables suggest. You'd also need a lot of elevation available on the scope with 816 inches of drop compared to a 100yd zero, 52-MOA, and 156 inches of sideways movement in a 10 mph crosswind.
Ideally you're looking to stay above 1,450 fps at your ultimate range to stay out of transonic speeds and that needs over 3,300 fps MV which you won't get from either cartridge. 7mm WSM can give over 3,100 fps in F-Class rifles and that gives you around 1,300 fps at the far end of your range which will normally work OK. The price is barrel life - even at 2,900 fps it's not good, but push it to 3,100 fps or so and it's dreadful.
I don't think you'd get that much more MV from the 7mm STW even with its bigger case as the cartridge becomes inefficient with a larger powder charge than the WSM's and you get severely diminishing returns. What does increase dramatically is barrel wear and you could be looking at as little as 250, 300 rounds before the throat is toast with the STW stoked right up - it's a one-shot, one-kill beanfield deer cartridge that isn't expected to be shot a lot.
The better answer is to go larger, not to .300 that hasn't got any really good bullets at the moment (but that may change soon, as Berger Bullets' people are currently working on a next generation family of super-high BC .30s), but to 0.338". It's no coincidence that most countries' military snipers now use .338 Lapua Magnum, the USA excepted which seems to have taken a dislike to the cartridge. Berger's 300gn Hybrid bullet has a tested G7 BC of 0.455 and is driven to 2,750 fps in .338LM military sniper type rifles, more in custom built longer barrel competition rifles. The 300 Hybrid at 2,750 fps MV travels at 1,436 fps at 1,500yd under standard conditions, right on our desired terminal velocity. Wind drift reduces to 111" in a 10 mph crosswind, around the same as the old .308 Sierra 155 Palma MK at 3,000 fps in .308W. Unlike hot-loaded 7mm cartridges, barrel accuracy life is good, at least 1,500 rounds. You still need a lot of scope elevation adjustment (48-MOA), but that applies to anything at such extreme ranges, so you might need a scope rail with a 30-MOA slope made up.
There are three big disadvantages in .338LM of course - rifle size & weight (if you have to carry it any distance), recoil, and cost. The extra weight isn't that much over what an optimised 7mm would be, the recoil is, but this is completely tamed by a good muzzle brake. These devices are banned in F-Class and similar competitions, and don't make their users exactly popular in general rifle range use, so it depends on where you're planning to shoot. Cost? If you want to shoot seriously at 1,500yd and up, everything becomes really expensive. You start to see specialist optics at several thousand dollars with external adjusters in the base etc as well as very expensive ammo costs (£3 here or around $US 4.50 per handloaded .338LM round).
Laurie,
York, England
The Berger 180gn 7mm VLD has a G7 BC of 0.337, exceptionally high. An MV of 2,900 fps sees it retain 1,177 fps at 1,500yd in 'standard' ballistics conditions - less in cold moist air with high atmospheric pressure, more in hot, dry air up a 5,000 ft mountain. So it would normally remain supersonic (1,122 fps under standard conditions), but not by a lot, and right in the turbulent transonic speed zone (1.3M down to 0.95M) that can cause bullets to lose speed faster or behave other than ballistic tables suggest. You'd also need a lot of elevation available on the scope with 816 inches of drop compared to a 100yd zero, 52-MOA, and 156 inches of sideways movement in a 10 mph crosswind.
Ideally you're looking to stay above 1,450 fps at your ultimate range to stay out of transonic speeds and that needs over 3,300 fps MV which you won't get from either cartridge. 7mm WSM can give over 3,100 fps in F-Class rifles and that gives you around 1,300 fps at the far end of your range which will normally work OK. The price is barrel life - even at 2,900 fps it's not good, but push it to 3,100 fps or so and it's dreadful.
I don't think you'd get that much more MV from the 7mm STW even with its bigger case as the cartridge becomes inefficient with a larger powder charge than the WSM's and you get severely diminishing returns. What does increase dramatically is barrel wear and you could be looking at as little as 250, 300 rounds before the throat is toast with the STW stoked right up - it's a one-shot, one-kill beanfield deer cartridge that isn't expected to be shot a lot.
The better answer is to go larger, not to .300 that hasn't got any really good bullets at the moment (but that may change soon, as Berger Bullets' people are currently working on a next generation family of super-high BC .30s), but to 0.338". It's no coincidence that most countries' military snipers now use .338 Lapua Magnum, the USA excepted which seems to have taken a dislike to the cartridge. Berger's 300gn Hybrid bullet has a tested G7 BC of 0.455 and is driven to 2,750 fps in .338LM military sniper type rifles, more in custom built longer barrel competition rifles. The 300 Hybrid at 2,750 fps MV travels at 1,436 fps at 1,500yd under standard conditions, right on our desired terminal velocity. Wind drift reduces to 111" in a 10 mph crosswind, around the same as the old .308 Sierra 155 Palma MK at 3,000 fps in .308W. Unlike hot-loaded 7mm cartridges, barrel accuracy life is good, at least 1,500 rounds. You still need a lot of scope elevation adjustment (48-MOA), but that applies to anything at such extreme ranges, so you might need a scope rail with a 30-MOA slope made up.
There are three big disadvantages in .338LM of course - rifle size & weight (if you have to carry it any distance), recoil, and cost. The extra weight isn't that much over what an optimised 7mm would be, the recoil is, but this is completely tamed by a good muzzle brake. These devices are banned in F-Class and similar competitions, and don't make their users exactly popular in general rifle range use, so it depends on where you're planning to shoot. Cost? If you want to shoot seriously at 1,500yd and up, everything becomes really expensive. You start to see specialist optics at several thousand dollars with external adjusters in the base etc as well as very expensive ammo costs (£3 here or around $US 4.50 per handloaded .338LM round).
Laurie,
York, England
Sorry if this is a little off topic, but would the Savage 110BA .338 Lapua with it's 26" barrel be capable of staying supersonic at 1500yds? Sorry, I'm just not too good at figuring the whole long range ballistics and retained velocity stuff.
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/110BA
I've always been interested in them, as they appear to be one of the more affordable .338 Lapua rifles available, and like Savage's a lot anyway. And the wife keeps nagging to move to North Dakota near her brother, as the oil business is booming and opportunity to make serious money is there. And with all the open area. one could actually take advantage of the awesome ballistics offered by the .338 Lapua.
And then there is the Anzio Ironworks .338 Lapua take-down rifle, which is another option that I really like the looks of, and it's supposed to have a 1500yd max range. Either one would suit my "needs" just fine.
But again, is the 26" barrel long enough to make it to 1500yds, or would it need to be longer. It does seem a bit short for a .338 Lapua.
Kenny
http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/110BA
I've always been interested in them, as they appear to be one of the more affordable .338 Lapua rifles available, and like Savage's a lot anyway. And the wife keeps nagging to move to North Dakota near her brother, as the oil business is booming and opportunity to make serious money is there. And with all the open area. one could actually take advantage of the awesome ballistics offered by the .338 Lapua.
And then there is the Anzio Ironworks .338 Lapua take-down rifle, which is another option that I really like the looks of, and it's supposed to have a 1500yd max range. Either one would suit my "needs" just fine.
But again, is the 26" barrel long enough to make it to 1500yds, or would it need to be longer. It does seem a bit short for a .338 Lapua.
Kenny
Thanks for the help guys. I think im going to go with the STW. What barrle do you think i should get? I know its going to be a 30", 1" in 8" twist but im kind of stuck of what brand to go for. Iv been looking into hart and Lilja a lot..
Kenny,
the Sako TRG42 long-range sniper rifle has a 690mm (27.17") barrel and is claimed to have an effective range of 1,500 metres (1,640 yd). I don't think the loss of just over an inch would affect you that badly. The other question there is waht barrel twist rate does Savage use? Some early .338LMs had 1-12" that limited them to the 250gn Lapua bullets. Bryan Litz says 1-9" is ideal for the 300gn Hybrid, but 1-10" (now the near standard .338LM rate) will stabilise the bullet for shooting out to nearly a mile in normal conditions.
At some later point, you could rebarrel the Savage to 30-32" with a faster twist to produce a true mile-plus range rifle subject to investing in suitable (and probably rather expensive) optics.
Thanks Laurie. The info is appreciated. The Savage has a 1-9 twist and I believe the Anzio rifle does as well, though the take-down rifle from Anzio doesn't have a muzzle brake installed, which I think would need to be added just for the sake of comfort while shooting.
Do you happen to know of any good reviews, write-ups or other such information on the Savage 110BA or the Anzio rifle? I would like to see how they compare to some of the other options, but have found little on the Anzio, and most of what I found on the Savage was written by gun magazines and such, which are not always the most honest descriptions you will find, though there are exceptions to that rule.
Not that I really plan to buy a .338 Lapua anytime soon, but it's nice to hope for stuff like that!
Though I could always just build one and possibly save some dough in the process, though the Savage is quite cheap.
Thanks again.
Kenny
Do you happen to know of any good reviews, write-ups or other such information on the Savage 110BA or the Anzio rifle? I would like to see how they compare to some of the other options, but have found little on the Anzio, and most of what I found on the Savage was written by gun magazines and such, which are not always the most honest descriptions you will find, though there are exceptions to that rule.
Not that I really plan to buy a .338 Lapua anytime soon, but it's nice to hope for stuff like that!
Though I could always just build one and possibly save some dough in the process, though the Savage is quite cheap.Thanks again.
Kenny
Define what you mean by 1,500 yard gun.
If you mean capable of hitting a target, then yes the 7WSM is certainly capable. I have personally shot my 7WSM sucessfully to right at 1,800 yards, over a mile with the Berger 180s. We were at 2,100 ft altitude in the Nevada Desert. That same day my brother was sucessful hitting the same target with his .284 Winchester. Neither of us use a muzzle break on our rifles. Both of us run th e180 Bergers at least 2,900 fps.
If you are talking of taking game at that distance, then the STW is going to be a much better choice. I'll not get into the ethics of shooting at game that far away, its only a question of energy delivered on target, and the STW will give you a large advantage over the 7WSM.
JeffVN
If you mean capable of hitting a target, then yes the 7WSM is certainly capable. I have personally shot my 7WSM sucessfully to right at 1,800 yards, over a mile with the Berger 180s. We were at 2,100 ft altitude in the Nevada Desert. That same day my brother was sucessful hitting the same target with his .284 Winchester. Neither of us use a muzzle break on our rifles. Both of us run th e180 Bergers at least 2,900 fps.
If you are talking of taking game at that distance, then the STW is going to be a much better choice. I'll not get into the ethics of shooting at game that far away, its only a question of energy delivered on target, and the STW will give you a large advantage over the 7WSM.
JeffVN
The only thing I would be shooting at 1500yds is paper. Has anyone heard much about the .284 Shehane?
Afraid not.
While that's for US50MCGunner to say what he has in mind, and yes I'll agree the faster 7mm jobs will shoot to 1,500yd and beyond. However, the fact that over 20 armies have officially adopted the .338LM, probably more in practice, tells you something about what works at very long ranges in non-rifle range environments that demand a first, or at most, second-shot hit capability.
As noted, if the sole criterion is hitting a target at a known range, .308 Win will do the job when throated specifically for the 210gn VLDs or 220gn SMK and loaded up to the gills in a strong action. It helps a great deal if you're shooting in hot, dry air at high altitudes whether at Coonabarrabran (1,700ft ASL and I'd imagine on the hot side in the NSW summer) or at 2,100ft in the Nevada desert. Try it on or near sea level in the northern states in winter and you'd likely get different, less satisfactory results.
We have a bunch of big bore eccentrics here in the UK in the GB Fifty Calibre Association, who despite the name mostly shoot the .338. The opportunities to shoot at very long distances are severely constrained in this country, GBFCA mostly hires days on the few military 'field-firing' ranges that allow shooting over very long distances and are also passed for .338 and .50 cal cartridges. Members shoot anything from 6mm BRs, .308W and similar to fifties at landscape features (sheep scrapes, tufts of coarse grasses etc) or old wrecked military vehicles. The guys who do it tell me that it is great fun ;D, and that the .338 really does give an advantage over smaller cartridges, not only in consistency of hits at ranges over 1,300yd, but in seeing bullet strikes and allowing corrections to be made.
The other factor too is that of barrel life, and that's down to how much you shoot obviously as well as the rate of wear per shot. The GBFCA guys simply shoot too much on their few range days, and shoot too fast, to contemplate the big cased sevens.
Rebarrelling is an expensive business here, and can see you wait a long time to get it done. Our GB F-Class Association national F-Class League shooters nearly all use big sevens now and two barrels a season is the norm with WSM variants meaning many people need two rifles as they can't guarantee a quick rebarrel job between matches. It also means that they hardly ever use their main rifles in club shoots and are adopting smaller cartridges as a result. So, 3 rifles now for some people to shoot in one discipline! .284 Win is catching on to some extent as it gives most of the performance of the WSM but getting on for 2,000 round barrel life.
USMC50Gunner said:
Yes,
it's a very effective cartridge indeed. Scotsman Grant Taylor won the F-Class European Championship with it at Bisley in November and is also the 2010/11 GB F-Class League winner with the Shehane.
One problem is dies. As far as I know, they are a custom job and can therefore be expensive.
The 7 STW is a hot number to be sure but I'd personally take a 7 RSAUM over it or the WSM. I'd prefer the brass and geometry of the short mags over the belted and the RSAUM has proven to be able to hang right with the WSM even though it's at a capacity disadvantage, it's also supposed to have better barrel life and accuracy with the longer neck. I'd have a harder choice between the 284 Shehane and the 7RSAUM though - they're both top notch.
Any of the top 7MM chamberings will launch a 162 AMAX or 180 VLD to well beyond 1500 yards. Sierra's showing a 180 VLD at 3000 FPS to drop below mach 1 at 1870 yards and a 162 AMAX at 3200 FPS drops below at 1840 yards.
wayne
Any of the top 7MM chamberings will launch a 162 AMAX or 180 VLD to well beyond 1500 yards. Sierra's showing a 180 VLD at 3000 FPS to drop below mach 1 at 1870 yards and a 162 AMAX at 3200 FPS drops below at 1840 yards.
wayne
Wayne,
I'd be very wary of Sierra's results at these ranges, even at half these ranges, because the Infinity program and tables etc from the company use G1 model based BCs that are frankly useless when you get way out there. They're fine to 500/600yd, well out at 1,000 and really way out at 1,500yd.
Bryan Litz's tests gives the 162gn A-Max a G7 BC of 0.307 and running it through Berger Bullets' ballistics program at 3,200 fps MV shows the bullet becomes subsonic at 1,610yd under standard ballistics environmental conditions. At and beyond that point it needs serious amounts of elevation lift on the sights, it showing as dropping 868 inches at 1,610yd (56-MOA) and getting really bad at 1,700 and 1,800yd.
I'd be very wary of Sierra's results at these ranges, even at half these ranges, because the Infinity program and tables etc from the company use G1 model based BCs that are frankly useless when you get way out there. They're fine to 500/600yd, well out at 1,000 and really way out at 1,500yd.
Bryan Litz's tests gives the 162gn A-Max a G7 BC of 0.307 and running it through Berger Bullets' ballistics program at 3,200 fps MV shows the bullet becomes subsonic at 1,610yd under standard ballistics environmental conditions. At and beyond that point it needs serious amounts of elevation lift on the sights, it showing as dropping 868 inches at 1,610yd (56-MOA) and getting really bad at 1,700 and 1,800yd.
Thanks Wayne. Im still kinda up in the air about what im going to do here but im starting to factor out some rounds. The STW being one because of the barrel life and the shehane because the price of the reloading setup. Iv got plenty of time to make a dicision because im going to wait till i get back from afghan in december to start building. The straight .284, 7mm rsaum, and the 7mm wsm are the top contenders as of right now.
If your goal is to be able to shoot and "Consistantly" hit targets at 1500yds you need to listen to Laurie.
He is giving you some excellent advice. Anyway you look at it shooting at extreme ranges is not a cheap sport.
I am in the process of having a .284 built to shoot 1000+yds with but even though I will shoot it to 1300yds once in awhile it wil be mostly a 1000yd rifle.
You honestly need the big .338s to do what you want to do. You could also look at a 338Edge it is a poormans .338 Lapua. It has the same or even better ballistics than the Lapua and is a lot cheaper to build and shoot.
I don't know what your skill level is and how much you have shot at 1000 or 1000+yds but you need to be a "VERY" experienced shooter to be shooting at 1500yds unless your like a lot of guys who go out and lob rounds at a target until they finally hit it then bang away at it an consider themselves long range shooters. Good luck in your quest but I would look at the .338s or get a .284 and do a lot of shooting out to 1000 and maybe streach it out some until you feel you have the wind mastered.
He is giving you some excellent advice. Anyway you look at it shooting at extreme ranges is not a cheap sport.
I am in the process of having a .284 built to shoot 1000+yds with but even though I will shoot it to 1300yds once in awhile it wil be mostly a 1000yd rifle.
You honestly need the big .338s to do what you want to do. You could also look at a 338Edge it is a poormans .338 Lapua. It has the same or even better ballistics than the Lapua and is a lot cheaper to build and shoot.
I don't know what your skill level is and how much you have shot at 1000 or 1000+yds but you need to be a "VERY" experienced shooter to be shooting at 1500yds unless your like a lot of guys who go out and lob rounds at a target until they finally hit it then bang away at it an consider themselves long range shooters. Good luck in your quest but I would look at the .338s or get a .284 and do a lot of shooting out to 1000 and maybe streach it out some until you feel you have the wind mastered.
Raptor,
If you dont mind me asking, what action and barrel are you using to build your .284?
I am a beginner 1000+ shooter. Iv never shot 1500yds but I would like a good rifle to start out with so when i miss i know it was my fault not the rifle's....
If you dont mind me asking, what action and barrel are you using to build your .284?
I am a beginner 1000+ shooter. Iv never shot 1500yds but I would like a good rifle to start out with so when i miss i know it was my fault not the rifle's....
Well I do have some 1500yd experience but thats with a M2 .50 BMG and Mk 19 Grenade launcher shooting at burnt out tanks. So my "experience" really has nothing to do with true long range shooting but it sure is fun!
Well a 40mm HE grenade probably has a BC of I have no clue. lol. When your shooting a fully automatic grenade launcher BC and pinpoint accuracy doesnt come into play. If youre within 15yds youre good!!
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