708.

[284winner]

If you have mags that'll feed 2.980" COAL rounds from a short action then 7-08/7-08AI will certainly suit with 160-168gn bullets. My 'straight' 7-08 is chambered for the 168gn Berger VLD seated optimally in the case and the ogive just in the lands. That produced a COAL of exactly 2.980" with a new barrel. The COAL with my usual 160gn TMK is a shade under 2.950", or at any rate that was ~15 thou' 'out' with a new barrel. (Might be more jump now after 1,800 + rounds, but it's such a jump-tolerant design I've never changed the seater setting, and won't as long as it keeps shooting as well as it does now.)

The 162gn ELD-M also measures 2.980" when 'in the lands'. I had loaded up batches with a range of COALs from this position to 25 thou' 'out' as a first attempt to see what it liked ...... but then Covid-19 shut down all ranges here. (The 168gn VLD which was what I originally intended to load simply wouldn't group when 10-15 thou' in the lands, or at least wouldn't group in the rifle's usual match set-up. Put a MagnetoSpeed V3 on the barrel though and it shot tiny groups at 100 yards. One day, I'll revisit this one and go through the whole Berger COAL setting and testing regime as it'll apparently shoot well at one setting or another.)

That's great news. What were your velocities with those 162s at 2.980 ? I prefer 2.950 and maintain excellent accuracy at 2980fps with the 162 elds.

 

[Laurie]

Thanks to the damned virus, I've not managed to shoot the 162s yet. The 160gn TMK runs at around 2,835 fps in my usual load (31-inch barrel) in reformed 308 Palma brass. Just before Covid struck I'd started a test series looking at H4350 and H4831sc alternatives available to us in the UK. (Thanks to regulatory changes we've lost all Hodgdon extruded powders, likewise half the range's 'sphericals' and all IMR powders except for the new 'green' Enduron grades.)

In Lapua standard LP brass with a mild Russian primer, H4350 gave the 160 TMK 2,784 fps; Norma 204 2,782 fps, and Norma URP 2,835 fps. The URP maximum was getting 'hot', N204 could undoubtedly be taken higher to above 2,800 fps, possibly well above, and H4350 showed no pressure signs at that charge/pressure level. I'd expect similar MVs from the 162 ELD.

I have a pretty impressive number of additional potential H4350 alternatives to try including the new Alliant Re16, but we've still no timescale here for restarting shooting.

 

[Longrange57]

My straight 7-08....COAL touching is 2.985 with 162 ELDM. S/B large primer velocity 2752 fps. 27 inch HV Bartlien. Only used in competition at 530 yards 1/3 moa. I've actually been more successful with 6.5 x 47, probably due to recoil but I think 7-08 AI with any match 160'ish bullet could be very competitive.

 

[Dessert]

The standard 7-08 is wonderfully accurate, if I remember a famous Brit shooter won the world 300 meter championships with one. IMO it may be the best 600 yard cartridge offering relatively mild recoil when conditions turn nasty with the wonderful 7mm bullets now available.

 

[std7mag]

Impressive numbers for sure with the 168s. The Ackley really increases performance. Wasn't aware it was that much. That's even a better reason to run a 7/08. Can you run those 168s in a short action ? What's the OAL of the cartridge with 168s ?

As my pictures showed, i was running a Savage short action.
I did try some 160gr Sierra HPBT GameKings (hunting rifle) and RL19. Got my best group ever with that combo.
I did try the 168gr Berger VLD-H. All fed well.
But the stock 22" factory barrel held me back on velocities.

I don't remember the COAL off the bat.

 

[sandwarrior]

I have a Bat M bedded into a Shehane stock, all it needs is a barrel.

I am considering a 7/08. I just bought a 33 inch long 1.250 straight 7mm Krieger barrel off of this site, 1-9 twist.

Any thoughts on the 7/08

Since you are talking F-Class or long range shooting, I have one and think it's great. In my trials and tribulations of getting into F-Class I found that while very accurate, there is just that little bit more recoil that makes you adjust each shot. Not like the recoil is punishing at all, it just moves you. If your body is not perfectly in position I've watched myself go from the X to getting pushed out into the 8-ring. The bullet lands in the outer 10 or 9 ring. I find the same thing with my 6.5 Creed to a lesser extent. I don't have that with either 6 BRA or 6 Dasher. And, while the bullets in 6mm do drift a bit more, there is such little recoil to deal with, I stay right on target. It's easier dealing with one issue of greater magnitude (wind) than two issues that you don't know exactly how much of one or the other.

For long range shooting I've used it to a mile. Think not of power but of ballistic effeciency and stability. Chuck, the other light gun shooter in the following Video, was shooting a 6.5 Creedmoor using 123 gr. Lapua Scenars. He got three hits, I got two. ScottyS1 set up all the film in the video. I was just out there to do some long range shooting with other shooters. I think the film is a great training aid. See where you can pick up mirage and in the inset close camera, you can see by the engineer tape how little wind it takes to move a bullet off target at that range. There are follow up vids of 950 yds. and a later one where I wasn't there of Chuck and Scotty shooting at 2k with the 6.5 Creed and the 6mm SLR. In the video, I'm shooting {added: 168 Berger VLDs and JLK's} from a 1-8" twist Shilen on a Savage in a skim bedded Choate tactical style stock. I chose the wrong scope for that range as I didn't have enough dial up. I had to dial up and hold over so much still that the target was out of my view when pulling the trigger. The safety factor to that is we were in the desert with no one for 75 miles downrange to us. And we could clearly see 360- degrees all around us. So, we knew it was clear to fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAnyljKPVgoctical

 

[sandwarrior]

To the post above, I am running 45.1 gr. of RE-19 under the 168's. I went with the double based powder for more pressure, but accept that in winter, I'll have to do a lot of adjusting vewrtical poa/poi, as this is a temp sensitive powder. I got to that load as a "minimum". It's warm enough in winter and not too hot in summer. It is quite a bit warmer in summer but not enough to burn you after a string of 20. Unless you hang on to the barrel for a while.

I have since moved to 175's and 180's as they still give me the trajectory I wanted less wind drift. The wind drift is huge. I pretty much beat any 6.5 out to 1k for drift. I load those at 44.5 gr. of RE-19 under either. Both are accurate. That load is a bit warmer than the 168 load. In the summer I can grab the barrel after a string and it's too hot to hang on to, but still doesn't sizzle skin.

Added: The whole principle in this is slow powder for a long burn in a long barrel to use the time of the long burn combined with a higher pressure output from the double-based powder.

 

[Laurie]

I loved the finale - 'killing' the target. What's the altitude of that desert 1 mile range?

I saw an excellent two-part video of Chuck & Scotty doing the desert range thing in 100 yard steps out to 1,100, maybe 1,200 yards with 26-inch barrel tactical rifles a few years back. 6XC and IIRC another modest six or 6.5. They have a great fun set-up there and the twin vidcam arrangement produces excellent and entertaining viewing.

 

[sandwarrior]

I loved the finale - 'killing' the target. What's the altitude of that desert 1 mile range?

I saw an excellent two-part video of Chuck & Scotty doing the desert range thing in 100 yard steps out to 1,100, maybe 1,200 yards with 26-inch barrel tactical rifles a few years back. 6XC and IIRC another modest six or 6.5. They have a great fun set-up there and the twin vidcam arrangement produces excellent and entertaining viewing.

Right at 4000' ASL. maybe a little over. It was about 95 deg. F. that day.

 

[Laurie]

I thought it might be pretty high and warm. That combination gives a good external ballistics boost.

 

[sandwarrior]

I thought it might be pretty high and warm. That combination gives a good external ballistics boost.

For a reference, we were about nine miles to the northeast of the southern tip of Pyramid Lake in Nevada.

 

[sandwarrior]

I loved the finale - 'killing' the target. What's the altitude of that desert 1 mile range?

I saw an excellent two-part video of Chuck & Scotty doing the desert range thing in 100 yard steps out to 1,100, maybe 1,200 yards with 26-inch barrel tactical rifles a few years back. 6XC and IIRC another modest six or 6.5. They have a great fun set-up there and the twin vidcam arrangement produces excellent and entertaining viewing.

That was the one I missed shooting at. They went out to 2k. Scotty was shooting a 6mm SLR and Chuck still using the 6.5 Creed. Scotty was shooting 115 DTACS and Chuck was shooting 123 Lapua Scenars. In that video, I believe Scotty inserted a statement @ either 1900 or @ 2k that you could hear (no snap) Chucks 123 Lapua's were no longer supersonic. Still, reaching out that far is pretty damn impressive with that light of a bullet.

He's also got an earlier(?) one where he's (Scotty) taking his .308 out to 1500 yds.

 

[std7mag]

Sandwarrior,

Any idea how far your staying supersonic?

After 20 round string with factory sporter barrel, i could have used it to cauderise a wound, much less hold onto the barrel!

 

[sandwarrior]

Sandwarrior,

Any idea how far your staying supersonic?

After 20 round string with factory sporter barrel, i could have used it to cauderise a wound, much less hold onto the barrel!

I know I was still supersonic in that video with 168's. Surprisingly, the 168's don't go much faster than the 180's. About 2740 on on the 168's and 2720 for the 180's of that era. I have since backed off a bit on the 180's as in really hot weather, I was getting signs of pressure.

For supersonic on that day, right around the distance of the target for the 168's before disruption. According to JBM I was going subsonic at around 1880 yds. with the 168's and 1980 yds. with the 180's. Remember that's supersonic 'across the ground' flight. Disruption begins above that, and supersonic air going around the bullet is still found down to .9 Mach. There is no quantifying where exactly when you last hear the snap of a supersonic bullet. Only that enough supersonic air will cause that snap.

Added: For post #52, Scotty's 6mm bullets were still supersonic PAST 2k.

 

[Laurie]

Any idea how far your staying supersonic?

For a quick and dirty answer use Berger's ballistics calculator on its website which has the 168 VLD ready loaded in its database.

At 59-deg F and 0 ft ASL, it says this bullet at 2,740 fps goes subsonic a bit short of 1,400 yards and transsonic flight starts maybe 200 yards shy of there. However, work done by the US Army many years back on the old 173gn FA FMJBT match bullet showed that transsonic negative effects didn't really kick in until the bullet was down to 100 fps above the speed of sound, ie ~ a retained speed of 1,225 fps which occurs a bit before 1,400 yards in this case.

BUT, change the environmental parameters to those quoted by @sandwarrior ie 95 deg and 4,000 ft ASL, and you obtain a big plus through the thinner air reducing drag. Subsonic transition moves to a bit the far side of 1,700 yards and the 1,225 fps speed-point isn't reached until nearly at 1,600 yards.

When going out to these sorts of distances and nudging the speed of sound basic calculators like this using average G7 BCs start to show limitations so these figures are a guide rather than written in stone. But they're pretty impressive from such a small cartridge.

With @sandwarrior mentioning the 123gn 6.5mm Scenar in the older Chuck & Scotty video range tests, I used to shoot this bullet at up to 1,000 yards in F-Class at not very high MVs. This is a stunning long-range performer and can produce amazing performance and precision in the little 6.5X47mm Lapua. I sometimes wonder how well it'd do in today's hot 6.5mm Creedmoor loads (as used by Chuck in the older video) in F-Class but everybody I know using this cartridge seems to choose the 147gn ELD and/or are experimenting with the new 150s these days.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Thanks for all of the input.

One of my best friends, Geramo Villarreal, had a reamer ground a while back that uses the Lapua 6.5x55 as the parent case. It is basically a 7mm/6.5x55 Ackley Improved. He necks up the 6.5x55 to 7mm, neck turns, then fire forms.

The reamer is called the 7mm Geramo

Ed Bernabeo had chambered a 22 pound rifle for this, and it shoots great. He uses H1000. The reamer is throated to accept the 165 grn to 180 grn Bullets. Ed was shooting at 400 yards last weekend at Walker County, pushing the Hornady 162 ELD at 2880 FPS, shooting several groups just under an inch over a 4 flag setup.

The brass is top quality.

I can easily modify a 280 Remington Redding Competition Neck die and seater to work. I can take a 6.5x55 Ackley Redding body die and ream out the neck portion to accommodate the .313 neck.

This is what I’m going with. It will be a fun project.

 

[greisdor]

 

[std7mag]

So it's NOT a 7mm-08AI??

7mm-08 would be 7X51...

 

[jackieschmidt]

So it's NOT a 7mm-08AI??

7mm-08 would be 7X51...

No, it’s the 6.5x55 Swedish necked up to 7mm and then Ackley improved.

the case is easy to make. Neck up to 7mm, turn about .002 off the necks to give it .003 clearance in the .313 neck, and fireforming.

the capacity falls between a 708 Ackley and a 284. Probably more suited for bullets in the 165 grn rang than the 180+.

if I find I don’t like it, I can always just set the barrel up and ream it for .284.

 

[sandwarrior]

No, it’s the 6.5x55 Swedish necked up to 7mm and then Ackley improved.

the case is easy to make. Neck up to 7mm, turn about .002 off the necks to give it .003 clearance in the .313 neck, and fireforming.

the capacity falls between a 708 Ackley and a 284. Probably more suited for bullets in the 165 grn rang than the 180+.

if I find I don’t like it, I can always just set the barrel up and ream it for .284.

Skip Talbot had that at their shop in Fallon in 1985. I don't know if your friend had it or it was already copied/claimed. But, that's a 1980's thing and I wish it would have been forwarded/patented with a twist suitable to super heavy 7mm bullets. No need whatsoever to limit it to 160 something bullets. The 7-08 will push 180-197 gr. bullets at competitive speeds.