6ppc glued actions

[swamp]

I'm new to BR shooting and am looking at used 6ppc rifles. Why do all seem to have actions glued to stocks? Dave

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

I'm new to BR shooting and am looking at used 6ppc rifles. Why do all seem to have actions glued to stocks?

Because it's simple to do, generally trouble-free (no action screws to become too loose or too tight), and it works -- for low-recoil cartridges, anyway.

 

[johara1]

Better is glued and screwed…….. jim

 

[swamp]

Thanks for replying. I suppose they are hard to take apart. David

 

[Tim Singleton]

With the lighter recoiling 6ppc many think that glue in only provides enough strength for the cartridge. There are a lot of smiths who don't want any any possibility of inducing stress on to the action. That is why so many are glued only.

A little side story that is relative I think
I wasn't to sure of this myself process myself until I had an issue this past summer. I had left a rifle in my truck all day while at work. It had gotten hot enough in the cab for the action glue to release I had a barreled action laying loose in my gun case.
My first thought was dang it should have screws and glued. After I thought more if it had been screwed as well I wouldn't have known the glue released. Maybe it would have been fine. But what if the screws weren't torqued evenly. I felt like if it had been screwed as well if there had been an accuracy problem it would have taken a long time to figure out.
Long story I glued it back in and rolled on

 

[Tim Singleton]

Thanks for replying. I suppose they are hard to take apart. David

You can take a household iron set it on top of the action it will release pretty quick

I personally wouldn't shoot anything above a ppc that was only glued

 

[BoydAllen]

One thing that is worth mentioning is that modern benchrest actions generally have trigger hangers that are designed to allow trigger removal from a glued in action. With that feature, there is really no reason to take a glue in apart. I have friends who do their own barreling who were concerned about checking fit in the process of fitting a new barrel for a glued in action, but once I showed them some of the simple measuring tools that are used to take the appropriate measurements and about thread wires, there were no more issues.

 

[swamp]

Good Information. I was wondering about trigger and barrel changes. David

 

[Bob3700]

If during a hot summer match, how do you know if the action starts to come "un-glued"? If heat in the cab of a truck can cause the glue to come loose - why not screw it in as well.

Just asking?

Bob

 

[BoydAllen]

I think that coming unglued is more of a function of the prep that was done, and the choice of glue. One thing that is always good to be aware of is that "fiberglass" stocks are not somehow magically inert, and impervious to the level of heat that will be found in the trunk of a car on a hot summer day. There is a thing called post curing that can take place, that can cause stocks to move to a significant degree depending on the procedure that was followed when they were manufactured. If you look at the bottom of a Viper action, it has deep cross hatching that is there to significantly increase the contact area of the glue line with the action. Additionally, because ordinary aluminum oxide would limit the strength of the bond, and for other reasons, the actions are hard anodized. If I remember what Jerry told me back in the late 90s, mine was (very neatly) glued in using a clear epoxy designed to bond golf club heads to their shafts. I believe that it was selected for its shock resistance. My other glued in action is a tuned up 722 that is in a prototype EDGE stock. It was bedded with Marine Tex, and glued in with JB weld, both rifles have never given any sign of coming unglued. Fresno summers can be quite hot. I will say that I would never leave a rifle in a hot trunk for a significant period of time, not because of fear of it coming unglued, but because of the post curing issue. I do not want to have a story to tell about that.

 

[Frankr]

A Glued in action is now part of the stock. no movement,no flexing. having one glued and screwed if done right can be a better set up. You can unglue them with a heat gun. there was a procedure for removing a glued in action in precision shooting some time back. I think it is in the book the Benchrest shooting Primer. I have used it a few times and it works great. the epoxy used has a temperature that it will loose bonding. JB Weld is the #1 choice. I think it lets go somewhere in the 220 deg F range. so it would have to be HOT for it to come apart.
I have seen a Hart Action in a 300 WM glued into a Mcmillian stock some 25 years ago. I don't know if it still is or not. I have seen a few Pillar bedding jobs that fit so snug that they could be shot with out screws. so now imagine it is traped(glued) in the stock with no clearance at all and that is a glue in..if that helps

 

[JRS]

Unless it is being used as a baseball bat ??? a properly bedded rifle gives up nothing to a glue in.

 

[CatShooter]

Unless it is being used as a baseball bat ??? a properly bedded rifle gives up nothing to a glue in.

What he said... the force of a screw pulling the action into a stock is HUGE - in the thousands of pounds - nothing is going to effect or move it.

Far more than a glue-in, which has "0" force pulling the action into the stock.

 

[timeout]

I spoke with a competitor that had flown to a shoot some years back. His action was a glue into the stock style. The rifle was transported in the cargo area and exposed to extreme cold. When he removed the rifle from its' case, the action was loose in the stock. It seems as though extreme temps in either direction may be a problem for glue ins.

 

[johara1]

I think i will pass this on, if it came apart in the trunk of a car it was not done properly or the glue was not up to the job or all of the above. I had one come apart that was done with JB weld…….. but it still still managed to shoot 2-50's with 3" groups at 1000 which are part of a record i cleaned it up and glued it with liquid Devcon after i pillared it so now all i use is glued and screwed and it shot the best 4 match agg. ever seen, all 50's and 2.83 for the agg.at 1000. I was told that it would be hard to get apart using liquid Devcon to glue it together but i think that is what i'm seeking……. Jim O'Hara

 

[BoydAllen]

If it came apart with JB, i think that the prep. may have been flawed.

A friend has a Baja bug type Volkswagen , with a highly modified motor. For the previous build of that motor, that went about 170 thousand miles, he had radically ported the heads, and in the process, he ran through the casting of one of the intake ports, leaving a small hole, which he repaired with JB weld. Now I know that an intake port would be cooled by the gas air mixture and all of that, but I am still impressed by the fact that that repair never failed. For JB or any of the epoxies, I think that one of the big issues is how clean the surfaces are of any contaminant, and that that is the probable cause of some of the glue-in failures.

For those of you that think that gluing and screwing is the answer, I leave you with this. Years back, before a match at Visalia, I asked a group of top shooters the glue-in vs. pillar bed question, and after every one had expressed his opinion, Lee Six, said that doing both was what he preferred, that he thought that it was better than either one by itself. Later, a Hall of Fame member, who builds rifles, and was part of the original discussion, told me that that may have been because the epoxies in use at the time (for glue-ins) was not as reliable as some of the newer adhesives like JB.

 

[JRS]

C'mon Boyd ???

JB Weld has been here since 1969!

 

[BoydAllen]

Yes, but it may not have seen the use that it currently does for gluing in actions. Obviously it is a excellent choice for that application. All that I used to read about was Devcon.

 

[JRS]

My response was directed only, to your "newer adhesives like JB". JB Weld is great for many things Boyd. A combustion chamber certainly isn't one of them. As a matter of fact, JB Weld advises it NOT be used in a combustion chamber. It's pretty strong stuff, but, won't withstand pressures like that. With the more modern stocks and bedding materials available today, glueing and screwing has only one advantage. It's the easiest and quickest way to seat the action.

 

[BoydAllen]

Intake port, not combustion chamber... and I was not recommending, just reporting from a reliable source.
At the time of the discussion that I referred to, I asked Lee how he did a glue and screw. He told me that he would do a conventional pillar bedding job, and then prep the surfaces for the glue in part, including release where needed for the screws, and then paint in a thin coat of epoxy, and do the glue in part. He felt that doing both did a better job of coupling the action to the stock. Again, I am just reporting here. I don't know about what the options are at Kelblys, but back when Lee was around and building stocks, they could be ordered with aluminum pillars imbedded so that all one had to do was drill the holes through them.