6mmBR Help?...

[dkhunt14]

Those groups are that bad that I believe it is not a load issue. Yes you can probably get the load better but I don't think it is the problem. It has to be something mechanical, Bad barrel, scope, something loose, or rest and shooting style. I would let somebody else shoot it on a good rest to rule out a few things. Somebody close to him should shoot some kind of competition and be able to help him out. Maybe somebody at the local club where he shoots. Matt

 

[snakepit]

Is the front rest solid? From looking at the pictures the front rest looks flimsy.

May be the front rest its a cheap Caldwell with one of their "wide" bags, that's not very wide, perhaps that could be an issue. !

I agree with dkhunt that the rest looks flimsy. It looks like the cheapest model that Caldwell makes for a front rest, you can buy that one new for around $30 to $35 dollars. There are several good rest available in the mid $100 to $200 range you might consider. These often come with a descent 3" bag that is better than what you say you have. The rifle needs a descent bench rest setup in order for you to work on accurate loads and improve your shooting technique.

 

[M-61]

This gives you action screw torque:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/

Do you have the short screw in the picatinny rail front (Muzzle) hole??

I would shoot a few Lapua factory rounds at a MAX of 100 yards. This will eliminate any reloading variances, and wind flags etc. Their ammo is quite accurate. (Probably their ammo in that rifle is the mast accurate factory ammo I have ever shot.)


Quote from potatoe:
"Also what do you mean your brass is "turned down to spec"? I'd think that a factory gun would have a no turn neck. If you are turning them and using a standard die ( non bushing) you are loosing neck tension. Can you give us some more specs on your stuff, the chamber neck dia., barrel twist, brass- turned or unturned necks."

Great question indeed, and those questions he asked are needed to be answered to try to get help with your problem.

 

[sgreen3]

Sgreen3 I am not an expert by any means but I do shoot Savages and have 13-14 in the safe and not one of them likes a jammed bullet. I usually start at 0.018-0.022 off and work from there, I also pick a load in the middle of the range to start and work up .2 gr. at a time until I find a decent load.
I am presently shooting a 243 match at 100 -200 yard BR score matches using 105 Bergers 0.022 off the lands and just shot a 247 this past Sat. so yes they can compete.
On another note try different positions for shooting I found sitting almost directly behind the gun works best for me.

Thanks for the info! Yea from what Ive heard it seems a lot of guys go off the lands at various amounts. I think that's what Im going to try. Im going to try the "free recoil" method next and see if that helps also.

 

[sgreen3]

Is the front rest solid? From looking at the pictures the front rest looks flimsy.

May be the front rest its a cheap Caldwell with one of their "wide" bags, that's not very wide, perhaps that could be an issue. !

I agree with dkhunt that the rest looks flimsy. It looks like the cheapest model that Caldwell makes for a front rest, you can buy that one new for around $30 to $35 dollars. There are several good rest available in the mid $100 to $200 range you might consider. These often come with a descent 3" bag that is better than what you say you have. The rifle needs a descent bench rest setup in order for you to work on accurate loads and improve your shooting technique.

Ha ha yup its the first rest I ever bought, so yea Im sure I need an upgrade lol. I cant afford a really nice one right now but I think I can get a Caldwell Rock BR from a friend for pretty reasonable. I know its not top of the line but Im sure it will help me out a little.

 

[joshb]

I used 2-3 sandbags for years.👿

 

[sgreen3]

This gives you action screw torque:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/

Do you have the short screw in the picatinny rail front (Muzzle) hole??

I would shoot a few Lapua factory rounds at a MAX of 100 yards. This will eliminate any reloading variances, and wind flags etc. Their ammo is quite accurate. (Probably their ammo in that rifle is the mast accurate factory ammo I have ever shot.)


Quote from potatoe:
"Also what do you mean your brass is "turned down to spec"? I'd think that a factory gun would have a no turn neck. If you are turning them and using a standard die ( non bushing) you are loosing neck tension. Can you give us some more specs on your stuff, the chamber neck dia., barrel twist, brass- turned or unturned necks."

Great question indeed, and those questions he asked are needed to be answered to try to get help with your problem.

Are you talking in the scope base on the short screw? if so Im not sure to be honest. That's a very good idea on the factory Lapua rounds, I may try that after I get paid again if I cant figure anything else out (a $100 bucks for 50rds is a little rough, lol). As far as the brass all Im doing is full length sizing right now, not sure on the chamber neck dia. its a 1:8 twist. Thanks for your reply!

 

[noload]

I use Reloader 15 and 105 vlds or Hybr's at 300yd and they shoot well at 100yd. 80gr Bergers will work fine at 100 also. I shoot (2) Sav mod 12 target actions with BR's , Dashers, and 6.5x47s. They will compete with anything in F Class. If you gun pans out mechanically correct and you have checked srcrews, scope, rest, etc... as other have suggested , it should hammer with 29.8 to 30gr of Rl15, 105 Vld .002" short of the lands. Use a very very light shoulder touch and very light pistol grip, with no cheek on the gun. Ease the trigger back straight every time and repeat for every round.

 

[DanSavage]

I use Reloader 15 and 105 vlds or Hybr's at 300yd and they shoot well at 100yd. 80gr Bergers will work fine at 100 also. I shoot (2) Sav mod 12 target actions with BR's , Dashers, and 6.5x47s. They will compete with anything in F Class. If you gun pans out mechanically correct and you have checked srcrews, scope, rest, etc... as other have suggested , it should hammer with 29.8 to 30gr of Rl15, 105 Vld .002" short of the lands. Use a very very light shoulder touch and very light pistol grip, with no cheek on the gun. Ease the trigger back straight every time and repeat for every round.

That is how I"try" to shoot,, if I can do it through a whole match the results are great. Shoulder just touching the stock,, no more no less.

 

[M-61]

This gives you action screw torque:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/

Do you have the short screw in the picatinny rail front (Muzzle) hole??

I would shoot a few Lapua factory rounds at a MAX of 100 yards. This will eliminate any reloading variances, and wind flags etc. Their ammo is quite accurate. (Probably their ammo in that rifle is the mast accurate factory ammo I have ever shot.)


Quote from potatoe:
"Also what do you mean your brass is "turned down to spec"? I'd think that a factory gun would have a no turn neck. If you are turning them and using a standard die ( non bushing) you are loosing neck tension. Can you give us some more specs on your stuff, the chamber neck dia., barrel twist, brass- turned or unturned necks."

Great question indeed, and those questions he asked are needed to be answered to try to get help with your problem.

Are you talking in the scope base on the short screw? if so Im not sure to be honest. That's a very good idea on the factory Lapua rounds, I may try that after I get paid again if I cant figure anything else out (a $100 bucks for 50rds is a little rough, lol). As far as the brass all Im doing is full length sizing right now, not sure on the chamber neck dia. its a 1:8 twist. Thanks for your reply!

Yes, the 1st screw of the four the hold the rail on the action. (1st=closest to the muzzle). Some rail manufacturers supply a shorter screw with instructions as to where to use it, but I have seen other rails that do not. That one screw is 'just' shorter but needed in that first hole. Do I think this is your problem cause? No, but this is the time to check (1-4 chance of getting it right without looking) and to correct it if it is wrong. It does cut into the barrel threads. I have seen barrels removed with the wrong screw in the rail and am always amazed that someone could continue to remove the barrel as the amount of effort must be considerable. Peels the thread right up. To repeat myself now is the time to check. I doubt it's the problem but it is surely not an asset, and maybe a problem.
A box of 20 is what I was referring to. Yes they are expensive but I think you have to have a starting point to be a gauge and in doing so eliminate ANY possible reloading caused problems. I assume you bought empty brass to start with. At the worst you have 20 more pieces of brass in stock.
After checking the rail screws, the action screws, etc., I would shoot, as I said, at 100 yards MAX. I have a fair amount of experience with a number of this exact rifle chambered for that cartridge. Each and every one shot 5 shot groups with that Lapua ammo that was the smallest groups I have ever shot with factory ammo in a factory rifle. ( I was shocked at the results).
Put the action in the stock, be sure to pull the action rearwards (seat the recoil lug to the rear if there is movement), follow the torque instructions in the order and tightening listed, and let us know what a 5 shot group with factory ammo produced. I think you will find it to be a fine shooting rifle.
Once that is done and should it be successful, then work on the reloads.

 

[sgreen3]

I use Reloader 15 and 105 vlds or Hybr's at 300yd and they shoot well at 100yd. 80gr Bergers will work fine at 100 also. I shoot (2) Sav mod 12 target actions with BR's , Dashers, and 6.5x47s. They will compete with anything in F Class. If you gun pans out mechanically correct and you have checked srcrews, scope, rest, etc... as other have suggested , it should hammer with 29.8 to 30gr of Rl15, 105 Vld .002" short of the lands. Use a very very light shoulder touch and very light pistol grip, with no cheek on the gun. Ease the trigger back straight every time and repeat for every round.

Hey thanks for the advice! I will try it tomorrow when I try a few of the 105 Hornadys.

 

[sgreen3]

This gives you action screw torque:

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/

Do you have the short screw in the picatinny rail front (Muzzle) hole??

I would shoot a few Lapua factory rounds at a MAX of 100 yards. This will eliminate any reloading variances, and wind flags etc. Their ammo is quite accurate. (Probably their ammo in that rifle is the mast accurate factory ammo I have ever shot.)


Quote from potatoe:
"Also what do you mean your brass is "turned down to spec"? I'd think that a factory gun would have a no turn neck. If you are turning them and using a standard die ( non bushing) you are loosing neck tension. Can you give us some more specs on your stuff, the chamber neck dia., barrel twist, brass- turned or unturned necks."

Great question indeed, and those questions he asked are needed to be answered to try to get help with your problem.

Are you talking in the scope base on the short screw? if so Im not sure to be honest. That's a very good idea on the factory Lapua rounds, I may try that after I get paid again if I cant figure anything else out (a $100 bucks for 50rds is a little rough, lol). As far as the brass all Im doing is full length sizing right now, not sure on the chamber neck dia. its a 1:8 twist. Thanks for your reply!

Yes, the 1st screw of the four the hold the rail on the action. (1st=closest to the muzzle). Some rail manufacturers supply a shorter screw with instructions as to where to use it, but I have seen other rails that do not. That one screw is 'just' shorter but needed in that first hole. Do I think this is your problem cause? No, but this is the time to check (1-4 chance of getting it right without looking) and to correct it if it is wrong. It does cut into the barrel threads. I have seen barrels removed with the wrong screw in the rail and am always amazed that someone could continue to remove the barrel as the amount of effort must be considerable. Peels the thread right up. To repeat myself now is the time to check. I doubt it's the problem but it is surely not an asset, and maybe a problem.
A box of 20 is what I was referring to. Yes they are expensive but I think you have to have a starting point to be a gauge and in doing so eliminate ANY possible reloading caused problems. I assume you bought empty brass to start with. At the worst you have 20 more pieces of brass in stock.
After checking the rail screws, the action screws, etc., I would shoot, as I said, at 100 yards MAX. I have a fair amount of experience with a number of this exact rifle chambered for that cartridge. Each and every one shot 5 shot groups with that Lapua ammo that was the smallest groups I have ever shot with factory ammo in a factory rifle. ( I was shocked at the results).
Put the action in the stock, be sure to pull the action rearwards (seat the recoil lug to the rear if there is movement), follow the torque instructions in the order and tightening listed, and let us know what a 5 shot group with factory ammo produced. I think you will find it to be a fine shooting rifle.
Once that is done and should it be successful, then work on the reloads.

Thanks a lot! Were at would I find the 20rd boxes? Im going to try some 105 Hornadys that I just loaded this evening. Im going to shoot those tomorrow @ 100yrds after I do the action retorque like you suggested.

 

[Marfaprecision]

I love savages and own many of them. I have been fortunate and all of my factory barrels have shot very well. But some barrels will just not shoot no matter how much tinkering you do. Take a look at this page.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/09/savage-lrpv-saga-when-a-barrel-upgrade-is-the-only-solution/

One thing I would certainly look at is action screw torque. It made a very noticeable improvement on my PTA actions. Take a look at this, it explains how to do it in good detail.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/

I would certainly look at upgrading your rest and rear bag. Bald Eagle makes some nice rests for a decent price. Or Sinclair international's varmint rest is also a good value. I own one and am happy with it. Sometimes a new barrel will be the least frustrating option to the accuracy your looking for. And Jim Briggs at Northland Shooter Supply would be a good place to start your search for a new barrel.

Good shootin,
Cody R.

 

[Marfaprecision]

Sorry I missed the above post about action torque settings. I read through the thread and thought I hadn't seen it mentioned yet.

 

[sgreen3]

*UPDATE*

Well fellas I made it out back to the range again today an tried out some of those Hornady 105gr Amax. Taking some advice from you guys I loaded these .010 from the lands and tried to use a "free Recoil" technique. Also started the load development back at 100yrds as a few have mentioned I should do. I also did the action torque procedure that was listed in the link. At first when I started my groups it was much the same result. A lot of the groups I shot I could get the same or a little better from a few of the ARs I own so needless to say a little frustration set in again. I loaded the 105gr Hornadys over Varget from 26.5, 27, 27.5, 28, 28.5 and shot 3 rounds of each all at 110yrds. In the first pic you notice that the results were less than stellar with the exception on the lower left using 28gr of Varget but I'm assuming pulled the left. Then the last group was just horrid, after I calmed down I went back up the shed an loaded 3 more of 28, 28.5, and for just grins I decided to try 26gr even. As you can see from the middle group on the last pic that was using 26gr of Varget ( I'm very happy with that. I'm assuming that's what I should be expecting at 100yrds with a proper load from this rifle? One thing I did notice is my front rest, as some of you mentioned it could be a problem. I noticed that with the stock sitting in it, it sit at some what canted to the side and I had to keep pressing one side down to get it level and try and repeat the shot (so yea Ill be upgrading to a better rest very shortly and see if that helps with the overall group size). So do you guys think I should try working with this bullet powder combo(26gr Varget) a little more and push it out to 200yrds an see what it will do or should I go a different route? Also should I be cleaning the rifle barrel or should I just let it be ( other than running a lightly oiled patch through the barrel when I first took it from the box I haven't touched it)? Thanks fellas, all the advice has been a big help!!!!!!

 

[M-61]

First off, I guess I did not recall Lapua is a 50 round box. Even though it's some time ago I can't believe I bought a 50 round box, but..... I did not start with empty brass, so whatever the amount was I bought it.....should have stuck in my mind.
Cleaning the barrel.....I clean it when I come home when I'm done shooting. Even though my 100 yard range is in my yard I'm not dragging the cleaning stuff outside. I won't get into a barrel cleaning debate with anyone, just saying what I do. And Varget is filthy.

Are you saying your rifle is canted because of the rest? If you are applying pressure on the rifle to straighten it....no good. Lay a towel on the rest or something to make it sit straight by itself....no pressure anywhere.( except your shoulder). How are you judging that it is canted? By the reticle? Is the scope mounted carefully with the reticle square? Meaning matched against a hanging string and the elevation cross hair is perfect? I seem to spend more time than most in lining a scope up as the very best I can.

Finally I would take the pain and spring for the Lapua ammo. That nice 3 shot group you shot I feel would be a 5 shot group with the factory stuff, until you work out a good load for YOUR rifle it will give you (I feel) an interesting goal. I see NO reason to go beyond your 100 yards (and a few why you shouldn't) until that group is smaller and repeatable.

Everything I have said is 100% anecdotal evidence based on my personal experience with zero scientific testing.

 

[Tim Singleton]

You should clean the barrel well. If I'm understanding right. As of now there's quite a few rounds fired Maybe over a hundred. I would clean well with some sweets or other type of copper remover and brush well. Nylon if you prefer. I use bronze. Don't want to touch off a huge hijack about brushing. A factory barrel will strip copper for a while until the lead gets worn in a little. If it's not removed it will build on top of itself and get worse

The 26gr load looks better. But is a light charge.
I think for the amount of powder and bullets shot you could have done a nice seating depth test. As of now you don't really know any more than before you shot this target.
I hope it comes together

Tim

 

[M-61]

You should clean the barrel well. If I'm understanding right. As of now there's quite a few rounds fired Maybe over a hundred. I would clean well with some sweets or other type of copper remover and brush well. Nylon if you prefer. I use bronze. Don't want to touch off a huge hijack about brushing. A factory barrel will strip copper for a while until the lead gets worn in a little. If it's not removed it will build on top of itself and get worse

The 26gr load looks better. But is a light charge.
I think for the amount of powder and bullets shot you could have done a nice seating depth test. As of now you don't really know any more than before you shot this target.
I hope it comes together

Tim

I guess I should have said my average outing for a day of shooting this rifle is maybe 35-40 rounds tops. Then it is cleaned. And like you, Tim, I do not (will not) contribute as to how to clean. I did not realize he had 100 down the tube.

 

[sgreen3]

What kind of seating depth teat should I run? It did seem moving back off the lands helped. As far as the canted problem yes its the rest cause its not sitting perfectly flat. Ok I'll keep working at 100yrds an see of I can get some repeatability out of it. I currently have 92rds through the rifle.

 

[M-61]

Time to clean.