6mm br shorten to 6mm ppc capacity

[Larry Koch]

Wow, so much in formation from a history stand point. Please keep it coming. As far as brass on the 6ppc, Alpha is going to have some out this late spring, or summer with the small primer hole and its going to be 6ppc brass. So fireforming will be minimal.

 

[NC/Br Shooter]

Wow, so much in formation from a history stand point. Please keep it coming. As far as brass on the 6ppc, Alpha is going to have some out this late spring, or summer with the small primer hole and its going to be 6ppc brass. So fireforming will be minimal.

Man man,! If Ida known that. Still might do something about it though. Where'd you find this out, if you don't mind? This is big news.
Also, if they come out with ppc brass, I'm sure they would offer a reamer for their brass. They do for much of their other cartridges. The legacy reamers? Right?
That would solve the problem of all the different specs of ppc reamers out there.

 

[NC/Br Shooter]

P.S. writer Dick Wright had some funny story's about his Talldog., shoot bugholes one day and not so much the next. Think he left a box up on the roof at Kelbys...lol
Speaking of Mr Kelby I remember seeing him placing high at one of the Super Shoots shooting a 22-45..... What is that? Some 222 variant?

Great thread.

Sounds like a .223, but I guess that was the underlying joke, right?

 

[steve210]

On further thought this was during the mid to late 80s,lapua started making it in the 90s. I think the Kebley's were involved in getting lapua to make it. The sako brass was the main source of the first stuff.

 

[Fuj]

There’s at least one guy that shoots local to me who is using a 6BR shortened 0.100”. He said he’s been shooting it for years, and he does very well. I like the idea of the cartridge, but I’m personally not a fan of moving shoulders back on the parent case.

Looked at this sometime back to do a .224 wild cat. I like using
much longer brass to start with. When the 6gt came out, I said
Hmmmmnnnn......lots of brass to flow thru the dies and still thin
enough in the neck area for easy clean up.

 

[STS]

P.S. writer Dick Wright had some funny story's about his Talldog., shoot bugholes one day and not so much the next. Think he left a box up on the roof at Kelbys...lol
Speaking of Mr Kelby I remember seeing him placing high at one of the Super Shoots shooting a 22-45..... What is that? Some 222 variant?

Great thread.

The 22x45 was a .222 Rem 45 degree improved. Back in those days there was still a great deal of experimenting going on with different cases in a effort to gain an edge on the competition. Ultimately that competition gave the world the PPC which has effectively shut down experimentation in short range BR. There is still some different case designs around, but not nearly to the extent that there was back in the 70's. There were a number of rounds that were variants of the .222 and .223 back then. The mentioned .22x45, the .223x35, the .222x35 and the .222 mag.x 40 come to mind. Dan Dowling originated the .22 Waldog and that name came from the first gentleman to own one. Dan hyphenated his name to identify the cartridge. Waldo G. Woodside became WALDOG. I'm pretty sure I had the first .22 PPC -.100. I chambered it up .100 short because I had a lot of H 322 that was a bit slower burning powder that most of the other lots. So my reasoning was (right or wrong) that it would work better in a littler longer case than the .125 short WALDOG. I'm sure it made zero difference but that's the way it happened.

 

[Larry Koch]

Man man,! If Ida known that. Still might do something about it though. Where'd you find this out, if you don't mind? This is big news.
Also, if they come out with ppc brass, I'm sure they would offer a reamer for their brass. They do for much of their other cartridges. The legacy reamers? Right?
That would solve the problem of all the different specs of ppc reamers out there.

Well I know its really, how long before it’s available only time will tell. I’ve seen the brass being tested. I’m sure deals are being made. A project in the works for some time.

 

[Larry Koch]

Side note it’s not going to be cheap. 150.00 plus A to B cost.

 

[Mulligan]

Talldog Improved photos




30.2gr of 133 regular funnel/regular pour.
Fully formed case

30.8gr 133 again normal funnel/normal pour.
This is a fully formed case.


Meyers 68 gr bullet seated at .020”in the lands. Fireform load.

As you can see, with this long neck, the base of the bullet is well above the thick part (what was shoulder) of the neck. These measure .2695-.2700” for the .273 chamber.

CW

 

[wildcatter]

Been there done that,,, if you want it to shoot like a ppc? Trust me, it won't work! It might on a particular day, but don't expect repeatable results, very temperamental compared to the ppc.

Today if I wanted to compete with the ppc in short range BR. I would go with a 30 BR, never again waste my time with a Talldog.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Been there done that,,, if you want it to shoot like a ppc? Trust me, it won't work! It might on a particular day, but don't expect repeatable results, very temperamental compared to the ppc.

Lots of people find a PPC temperamental, especially with n133. Worse? Lol! In a PPC, LT32 seems way, way less temperamental IME. I wonder and suspect it will act the same in his Talldog Improved. Personally, I think most of that is the nature of n133 more so than the cartridge but they both play their part. Oh, and it's just tough to beat a well tuned ppc with n133 but the key is the well tuned part, again IME. FWIW, with light bullets, I mainly use LT32 in a 6 Grendel but have shot a fair amount of n133 as well. If anything, I'd say it's a tad less temperamental in it than a PPC but hard to say. Different days bring different temperament in both. Either way, that's exactly what tuners are for.

 

[steve210]

If it's more tempramental than a ppc lord help you! Lol!

 

[wildcatter]

In my experiance, and I mean EXPERIANCE, not "I've heard". Shortening a 6BR takes away from its strength. It is not a good choice for Short Range BR!

The same can be said about the 6PPC, it is not a good choice for Bench Rest beyond 300 yards!

This not a guess, I built my first Tall Dog about 30 years ago, have been shooting BEnch Rest from 100 to 600 yards for longer than that. It is not just me, many have found the same thing. If they can win with another cartridge in short range, they all win more often with a PPC, just a proven fact.

Like a 30BR, probably the best competition for the 6PPC. At a 100 yards it might rule, but crank the wind up, and on an average, it becomes to hard to steer compared to the 6PPC. Most days in the end, the grand agg is going to the 6PPC, and at the end of the match, that's what it takes to be a winner.

Score may be different, as absolute accuracy, is now over ruled by the best outside diameter. I shoot very little score so I won't comment where I don't have enough experiance.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Lots of reasons to wildcat something but I think at the competition level of sr br specifically, optimizing case capacity and design to available powders may be the biggest reason why there may be small gains from it. Yes, it's very hard to beat a straight ppc in its wheelhouse. I went the other way in shooting a 6 Grendel. I won't say it's better than a ppc but it's as good, ime and it's easy. The talldog is pretty much just the opposite in that regard. Done right, BR is a lot of work without the hassle of forming cases, so the talldog isn't for me but I do like seeing people do the work and testing for themselves vs only going with the status quo. That's how we know stuff...testing it.

 

[Mulligan]

In my experiance, and I mean EXPERIANCE, not "I've heard". Shortening a 6BR takes away from its strength. It is not a good choice for Short Range BR!

The same can be said about the 6PPC, it is not a good choice for Bench Rest beyond 300 yards!

This not a guess, I built my first Tall Dog about 30 years ago, have been shooting BEnch Rest from 100 to 600 yards for longer than that. It is not just me, many have found the same thing. If they can win with another cartridge in short range, they all win more often with a PPC, just a proven fact.

Like a 30BR, probably the best competition for the 6PPC. At a 100 yards it might rule, but crank the wind up, and on an average, it becomes to hard to steer compared to the 6PPC. Most days in the end, the grand agg is going to the 6PPC, and at the end of the match, that's what it takes to be a winner.

Score may be different, as absolute accuracy, is now over ruled by the best outside diameter. I shoot very little score so I won't comment where I don't have enough experiance.

I have two 22 WalDog barrels, both will out shoot any PPC barrel on the same guns.
One rifle is a BAT DS on a Scarborough stock, the other is a 3L on a Scoville..... oh and a third DS on a McMillan edge. Same barrels, powder, bullets on all three setups, the 22 always out shoots the 6 in an agg. I believe the time and effort it takes to make good WalDog brass is what is holding it back, PPC is easy-peasy.

I love to tinker with this stuff and so far, the silly TallDog Improved wants to shoot.

Kind Regards
CW

Edit
I probably should make clear that I am nothing more than a hack at short range Benchrest. I have been playing the game locally for a few years and have NEVER won a yardage or agg. So, my opinion matter very little.
CW

 

[farmerjohn]

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[wildcatter]

I have two 22 WalDog barrels, both will out shoot any PPC barrel on the same guns.
One rifle is a BAT DS on a Scarborough stock, the other is a 3L on a Scoville..... oh and a third DS on a McMillan edge. Same barrels, powder, bullets on all three setups, the 22 always out shoots the 6 in an agg. I believe the time and effort it takes to make good WalDog brass is what is holding it back, PPC is easy-peasy.

I love to tinker with this stuff and so far, the silly TallDog Improved wants to shoot.

Kind Regards
CW

Edit
I probably should make clear that I am nothing more than a hack at short range Benchrest. I have been playing the game locally for a few years and have NEVER won a yardage or agg. So, my opinion matter very little.
CW

Trust me i understand. We all like to play. The Wall Dog is not on a BR case. But suffers the same issues for the extreme accuracy needed for short range benchrest. The most accurate discipline demanding game,,,, consistency, in all conditions.

Again, in the wind when things get real tough is why IT DOES NOT WIN, remember anything is possible once! The Wall dog, as well as the Talldog, don't dominate for those reasons. Top shooters choose the 6ppc nearly everytime because it is what works when the conditions get tough, just fact!

 

[wildcatter]

I am in no way saying any of these cartridges are not very accurate, and would be good for varmint, for as far out as there power was good for. But so is the 222, 222 mag 6x47, all extremely accurate, and easy to tune, with many options. But like the Dogs,,, consistency in all conditions get trumped by the 6mm PPC.

 

[S Miller]

Here are four cartridges we shot at the 2016 ibs pa state championships at Mainville Pa. Aug 28,29
6ppc,22waldog,22-075short ppc,20 vartarg. I shot the Waldog, my son Henry shot the .075 short and B Lachapelle shot the 20. The 6ppc shooter got blown out of the box at 200. The short 22br sounds like it would be fun. I like 22’s. Yes we got thumped by a world class shooter steering a 6ppc. Results on ibs website.

 

[Mulligan]

Here are four cartridges we shot at the 2016 ibs pa state championships at Mainville Pa. Aug 28,29
6ppc,22waldog,22-075short ppc,20 vartarg. I shot the Waldog, my son Henry shot the .075 short and B Lachapelle shot the 20. The 6ppc shooter got blown out of the box at 200. The short 22br sounds like it would be fun. I like 22’s. Yes we got thumped by a world class shooter steering a 6ppc. Results on ibs website.

I think I read that Rodney Brown won a match or two shooting a Vartarg?

CW

@CubCouper