6BR vrs 6PPC

[gunsandgunsmithing]

What Tim said Mike. I love your passion.

Thanks! I do have passion for this sport. It's a shame I'll probably work till lunch the day of my funeral. I'd much rather be building rifles and testing stuff. The only thing better is winning with it!

Well, I can think of one other thing that's better.

I do have a build I'm literally throwing together for some more tuner testing, with a good barrel on a borrowed Savage and stock. If it goes like I think it will, it'll be an eye opener. Should be testing in a few days and will post results when I have them.

 

[BartsBullets]

I got the impression that the op has a rifle with a dedicated br bolt face so that's one reason someone might want to shoot something besides a ppc.
For me, it's as simple as this....I want any advantage I can get..so why do exactly what your competition is doing?
You have to test things to know if something can be improved upon. I enjoy that aspect of the game and I truly feel that there are better options than a ppc or a 30br.
I've already mentioned that I've had many of both and that I shoot a 30 based on a Grendel because I think it gives me a better chance of winning vs a 30 br. This isn't conjecture but rather, I've extensively tested and compared the two. My conclusion was and is that the 30 Major (Grendel) is best. Not by much...but better.

I campaigned a 6 Grendel this year in a 12 twist shooting 80s at 3300fps. So far, I believe that it leaves nothing on the table at 100 yards vs the ppc, and at 200+, it's appears to be what I'd call considerably better than a ppc. It has other benefits vs a ppc as well, like no fire forming. Just neck it from 6.5 to 6mm, turn and burn.
Again, this is not conjecture but what testing has shown me. I won several matches with it this season against lots of ppc's.

Larry Moore campaigned a 12 twist 6Bra. He won the nationals and I believe has the points wrapped up as well, while pretty much kicking our tails with it and his own 80 grain bullets all season long. This is in UBR unlimited class. Before anyone dismisses his accomplishments for not being group matches, try it first. It's a tough game and has some of the best shooters anywhere, in any br game, be it group or score. Is the bra better than a Grendel or a ppc? I don't know yet...but what he did this year with his was impressive. And fwiw, most are shooting a ppc in this game as well. So, it's head to head and winning regularly against what most will tell you are better cartridges for absolute accuracy. Moral of that story is that just because most will parrot the ppc and 30br to be kings of their respective hills, there are people testing and winning with something else, rather than simply going with the flow.
BR is a competition, just like racing. It should encourage people to look for both large and small gains wherever they can be found..It should not be the BR version of nascars defunct IROC series.
Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way but if my goal is to beat you, I don't think following your every move is the best way forward. Rather, it's stagnation.

Mike,

Your advice needs an asterisk*!


Experimenting needs to be the game of the experienced shooter. I’ve watched a lot of new guys screw themselves into the ground trying to come up with something new thats going to kick everyone ass, and it’s a joke!

Until a shooter’s abilities start to rival a given cartridge’s accuracy potential they have no business experimenting, unless they enjoy frustration. The vast majority of shooters never reach this level.

As far as PURE accuracy, the 6ppc is NOT going to be beaten out to 200 yards. Highly unlikely even at 300 yards.

But that’s not saying something can’t rival the 6ppc accuracy and potentially be better in other areas such as wind bucking ability, ease of tuning, or staying in tune! But it takes someone with a lot of experience to be able to tell the difference!

Bart

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Mike,

Your advice needs an asterisk*!


Experimenting needs to be the game of the experienced shooter. I’ve watched a lot of new guys screw themselves into the ground trying to come up with something new thats going to kick everyone ass, and it’s a joke!

Until a shooter’s abilities start to rival a given cartridge’s accuracy potential they have no business experimenting, unless they enjoy frustration. The vast majority of shooters never reach this level.

As far as PURE accuracy, the 6ppc is NOT going to be beaten out to 200 yards. Highly unlikely even at 300 yards.

But that’s not saying something can’t rival the 6ppc accuracy and potentially be better in other areas such as wind bucking ability, ease of tuning, or staying in tune! But it takes someone with a lot of experience to be able to tell the difference!

Bart

I don't disagree with much of what you said but never is a really long time, Bart. WHY is nothing going to be better? Anything capable will be similar to it, as the ppc is the standard and serves as an excellent benchmark to measure against. And, wind bucking ability matters, as we do shoot in the wind and all that matters are the scores at the end of the day. I know you're a card carrying member of the ppc rules club...and it's not a bad club to belong to. Just don't let it give you tunnel vision. You have to keep an open mind to the possibility that there just might be something better, either now or in the future. You've said yourself, that the Grinch is the only cartridge you've seen that can hang with a ppc. With a significant bc advantage, how is it not better at 200 and beyond? That said, if it's the ppc case that makes it the "best", why not try a 12 twist and 80's in a ppc? I believe it was Ferris Pindell that did just that before he quit shooting. I think he said of the 81 grain bullets he was shooting, that it was like cheating. That's exactly how I felt when I first started shooting 80's in the Grendel. It was very apparent at 200, right out of the gate, to me.

 

[BartsBullets]

I think you have me confused with someone else.

Who was The first person to shoot the Grinch in competition (600 yard Nationals) Me! Who came out and said the Dasher was finicky and a shot flipper?Me! Who was the first person to shoot the Grinch in short range competition? Me! Who shot a 6ppc-Improved in competition this year? Me! So you can drop the 6PPC rules club crap. I think my mind is pretty open to different possibilities.

I’m not afraid of trying something different. But besides being expensive and time consuming. You need to have a high enough skill level to actually tell if it’s better or not! Just because it’s different doesn’t mean it’s better.

The problem with beating the PURE ACCURACY of the 6ppc is we are starting to get close to what is physical possible agg wise!

But like I said I think there are areas that can be improved upon potentially making a new cartridge a contender.

Bart
PS

Everything you mentioned above I’ve tried!

 

[gtl1946]

To Bart and Mike - Thank you !!! It is not the cartridge within reason , it is the shooter . Is there anything that can be done to the BR to "make it a better" short range cartridge ? Case capacity , bullet weight ,shoulder angle etc . to just improve it for short range or is it just fine as is ?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think you have me confused with someone else.

Who was The first person to shoot the Grinch in competition (600 yard Nationals) Me! Who came out and said the Dasher was finicky and a shot flipper?Me! Who was the first person to shoot the Grinch in short range competition? Me! Who shot a 6ppc-Improved in competition this year? Me! So you can drop the 6PPC rules club crap. I think my mind is pretty open to different possibilities.

I’m not afraid of trying something different. But besides being it is expensive and time consuming. You need to have a high enough skill level to actually better or not! Just because it’s different doesn’t mean it’s better.

The problem with beating the PURE ACCURACY of the 6ppc is we are starting to get close to what is physical possible agg wise!

But like I said I think there are areas that can be improved upon potentially making a new cartridge a contender.

Bart
PS

Everything you mentioned above I’ve tried!

Lol! I had to re read my post. And after doing so, I think you read more into it than I can find there.
As for the extra cost, it depends. With a straight 6 Grendel, I use a Grendel sizer with a smaller bushing and a ppc seater die. Works great and the cost was the same as it would be for a ppc. I made it a practice several years ago to, whenever practical, spec my reamer around redding bushing dies rather than needing to make or buy custom dies. It has worked out very well this way.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

To Bart and Mike - Thank you !!! It is not the cartridge within reason , it is the shooter . Is there anything that can be done to the BR to "make it a better" short range cartridge ? Case capacity , bullet weight ,shoulder angle etc . to just improve it for short range or is it just fine as is ?

I'm not following you...if it's not the cartridge (in this context), why bother improving it?

 

[Tim Singleton]

If this has been covered before I apologize but why is the PPC a better short range cartridge than the other and if it’s the case size of the BR can it be modified to make it more competitive. The reason I’m asking is the BR’s head size and just wondering. In other words, could you make the BR more competitive at 100-300 yards or am I just off base?

There were have been all kind of changes tried to the BR case attempting to make it more competitive to the ppc. Search for waldog or talldog I believe was one
They were driven by 220 Russian brass shortage if I remember right. No reason to do this unless you just want to. Then that’s reason enough

 

[Tim Singleton]

Pretty interesting read

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?92089-6-mm-talldog

 

[Tim Singleton]

If this is what you want to do get in touch with Paul Bike for a case forming die

 

[BartsBullets]

Lol! I had to replace read my post. And after doing so, I think you read more into it than I can find there.
As for the extra cost, it depends. With a straight 6 Grendel, I use a Grendel sizer with a smaller bushing and a ppc seater die. Works great and the cost was the same as it would be for a ppc. I made it a practice several years ago to, whenever practical, spec my reamer around redding bushing dies rather than needing to make or buy custom dies. It has worked out very well this way.

Don’t just stick with the straight Grendel case! Get out there and experiment! Get your hands dirty! Try some stuff that you have to fire form! Get different seaters and full length dies! Plus don’t forget if you really want to test you’ll have get barrels and to test you’ll need to use your good bullets powder and primers. Don’t forget to pick up at least a couple hundred pieces of brass. You preach experiment but I’m not seeing you doing a lot of it.

Bart

 

[50bmg1979]

I for one, am glad that shooters like Mike and Bart are experimenting with different stuff because without it we wouldn't have the advancements in components we have today to choose from. So thanks

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Don’t just stick with the straight Grendel case! Get out there and experiment! Get your hands dirty! Try some stuff that you have to fire form! Get different seaters and full length dies! Plus don’t forget if you really want to test you’ll have get barrels and to test you’ll need to use your good bullets powder and primers. Don’t forget to pick up at least a couple hundred pieces of brass. You preach experiment but I’m not seeing you doing a lot of it.

Bart

Stop whining. You're making my head hurt. Lol!

 

[BartsBullets]

Stop whining. You're making my head hurt.

Get out in your shop and get to work! I know how expensive and time consuming it is! I’ve been chasing rabbits in short and long range For awhile. No more Grendel! Shoot something new this coming year! I’m looking forward to what you come up with. You have all winter! Chip Chop! Be The Experimenter!

Bart

 

[Dave Way]

I kinda said that Dusty. How many serious competitors shoot a ppc? By that, I mean quality shooters who can contend at all. How many shoot something else? I really think that the "something else" crowd is probably some fraction of 1%. Of course a ppc shooter is likely to win. With those odds, when something else does actually win or even contend, I think we should shout about it a little louder, as those are some long odds. Instead, the sheep just chalk it up as a fluke much like they pretty much ignore the fact that a 30 Grendel broke the small group record for 100 yards that a ppc never did, with virtually every competitor shooting one for 40 years. What are those odds, too? It's not a fluke imho, when something else beats those odds and it happens more than once. As I said, the ppc doesn't leave a lot on the table and there simply isn't room for anything earth shattering.

The notion that nothing else can compete with a ppc because everyone shoots a ppc, is frustrating and is not what I consider to be a good argument.
With the odds being what they are, something besides a ppc winning in a decade should get attention, much less multiple matches in a single season.

I almost never do anything with the reason being, that's what everyone else does. If anything, that's a good reason to do something different. This is a competition. Why would I do the same as everyone else?
Not knocking a ppc. It's a great cartridge, no doubt.
Back to the subject, I do think that a short br can compete with a ppc. Again, I think case design, good components and optimum powders for the optimum bullet weight..is where it's at. The 6 Grinch and Grendel is a good example. How bad can a .070 long ppc be? That's exactly what a 6 Grendel is, which is smack between two of the best ever, a ppc and a br. It can't be bad. Now load it to the same pressures and/or speeds as a ppc OR, optimize powder and bullet weight to the small additional capacity.

It's an excellent cartridge as well.

If 99.5% of competitors shot one, this discussion would sound very different imho.

I tend to agree with you. I was pretty competitive years ago with a talldog. I've been out of short range benchrest for 20 plus years but I did manage to win half a 2 gun State Championship with a Short BR, the other half was won with a PPC. You see back then 220 Russian brass had dried up so I ended up with enough for my light gun which I bought used as a PPC but not my heavy gun. It was chambered in a 6mm talldog by George Kelbly. I formed the brass out of 7mm Remington BR brass on Neil Jones forming dies. No doubt today's Lapua brass would make much better better cases.

When I look at the old rest, rear bag, remember what my case necks looked like when I was first learning to turn necks back then, its hard to believe that rifle would shoot in the ones and often low ones constantly.

You know, I still have that rifle, Neil Jones forming, sizing and seating dies, 68 grain Bergers made by Walt himself and a sealed 8lb. jug of T32 powder along with a better scope, better barrels, better rest, better rear bag, better neck turner, more accurate scale, and vastly improved reloading technique. Maybe...

 

[steve123]

OT a bit here but...

So it must be that the 6mmPPC fails in long range distances due to wind drift, right??? Because I'm assuming it'd have less vertical than even the 6mmBR 6mmBRA, or Dasher.

I'm curious if anyone has shot a 6mmPPC with heavy bullets in a fast twist out to 1000Y, and how that went???

I've shot my 6mmFatRat and a 6mmART40 out past 1000Y and they did well - that is for being shot in a AR and all.

 

[oldduc]

But any new design should begin with WHY..
Why does it make sense to do any other than pick up a phone and order turn-key 6PPC?

Some people (like me) just like to swim upstream. I'd rather lose shooting something different than win with the same old piece du jour. I hope I'm not alone......what's the point otherwise?
~Gary

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I've got plenty to do for now, Bart.

 

[mikecr]

Some people (like me) just like to swim upstream. I'd rather lose shooting something different than win with the same old piece du jour. I hope I'm not alone......what's the point otherwise?
~Gary

I totally align with your ideology here. In my view, we don't actually NEED to build/shoot/reload/improve. We do it for the challenge, for the learning, and because our version of human is naturally compelled to change things(eventually everything). It can be completely satisfying to do this.
But many who compete do so for other & more social reasons. They are not in it to earn or learn or change. That's fine too. Their answer to WHY a new design, and their reality about it, would be different.

 

[AckleymanII]

Back when Ferris Pindell was trying to make the 81's competitive, the .900 length jackets were problematic. High quality jackets on this long jacket were not concentric enough to win matches. A friend bought 240,000 jackets of .900 in length and ended up wasting time and money trying to win with them. The .825 jacket was very good, but there were problems in manufacturing the longer .900 jacket. He offered the me the whole lot for $24 per thousand, I had no need for them. He could not give the jackets away, 10 years later.

Jacket quality WAS a major issue.

I had a set of dies made for a 75g low drag BT bullet based on the .900 length jacket, what a disappointment. Gene Harwood was also neck deep in the .900 jacket issues as it had been a major stumbling block for a long time.

Gene designed a next generation of low drag which was a 6mm 85g low drag BT on a jacket longer than .900,
J4 had no interest. After Gene died, I sent the bullets to Sierra begging them to consider making them.

So, the issue of jacket uniformity and larger than PPC cases to push those longer bullets are another can of worms. Bart could probably comment on this issue, IF there is an issue today.