If this has been covered before I apologize but why is the PPC a better short range cartridge than the other and if it’s the case size of the BR can it be modified to make it more competitive. The reason I’m asking is the BR’s head size and just wondering. In other words, could you make the BR more competitive at 100-300 yards or am I just off base?
6BR vrs 6PPC
- Thread starter gtl1946
- Start date
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
They try it all the time. Never for long. As good as the br is itll never agg with a ppc
the PPC has a track record and nearly religious following. Fact, myth or fiction, you pays your money and live with the consequences.
...and if you hear something enough, you'll begin to believe it. Lol!
Lots of matches were won with a 6 Tall Dog(shortened 6br) in spite of this.
I'm a big believer in cartridge design and capacity being critical to absolute accuracy and I'm still not convinced that a 6ppc is the end all, be all of short range cartridge design...but it is excellent and very close to that.
I tend to lean toward a case with a similar design and capacity that utilizes available powders and bullet weights best, may be where the venerable ppc may well be bettered. Of course, as long as 99.5% of group shooters use a ppc, it will continue to win most. It was and is a considerable advancement over its predecessorstill but there isn't much room left to substantially improve, as there was back then.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Just what i see. Theres a few running a 6br at every match i go to- whether its a 12tw shooting 80’s or a 14-15tw shooting 68’s and ive yet to see one win after 25yrs or so. Im sure theres some out there that could win but i figure if they did youd hear it shouted from the rooftops like that one time a grinch won.
Hoe There Dusty! Grinch won more that once! Several times actually! You checked out of the net for a long time and are experiencing an information gap!
I quit talking about it because I’m tired of spending hours answering Grinch questions!
Bart
Go to my website it’s all on there.
I kinda said that Dusty. How many serious competitors shoot a ppc? By that, I mean quality shooters who can contend at all. How many shoot something else? I really think that the "something else" crowd is probably some fraction of 1%. Of course a ppc shooter is likely to win. With those odds, when something else does actually win or even contend, I think we should shout about it a little louder, as those are some long odds. Instead, the sheep just chalk it up as a fluke much like they pretty much ignore the fact that a 30 Grendel broke the small group record for 100 yards that a ppc never did, with virtually every competitor shooting one for 40 years. What are those odds, too? It's not a fluke imho, when something else beats those odds and it happens more than once. As I said, the ppc doesn't leave a lot on the table and there simply isn't room for anything earth shattering.
The notion that nothing else can compete with a ppc because everyone shoots a ppc, is frustrating and is not what I consider to be a good argument.
With the odds being what they are, something besides a ppc winning in a decade should get attention, much less multiple matches in a single season.
I almost never do anything with the reason being, that's what everyone else does. If anything, that's a good reason to do something different. This is a competition. Why would I do the same as everyone else?
Not knocking a ppc. It's a great cartridge, no doubt.
Back to the subject, I do think that a short br can compete with a ppc. Again, I think case design, good components and optimum powders for the optimum bullet weight..is where it's at. The 6 Grinch and Grendel is a good example. How bad can a .070 long ppc be? That's exactly what a 6 Grendel is, which is smack between two of the best ever, a ppc and a br. It can't be bad. Now load it to the same pressures and/or speeds as a ppc OR, optimize powder and bullet weight to the small additional capacity.
It's an excellent cartridge as well.
If 99.5% of competitors shot one, this discussion would sound very different imho.
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Same goes for a 30br in score. I shoot a 30 Major (Grendel).
I'll say this, as I often do...I'm a gunsmith and if I thought a 30 br would give me a better chance of winning, I could be shooting one by lunch tomorrow.
Anyone that hasn't tried both, or anyone who goes with one over the other because someone that hasn't tried both said to...they are doing the same as most ppc shooters. They are simply doing so because it's what everyone else does, but without knowing anything about other good options. Baseless and not very smart decision making process in any other circumstance that I can think of, is the only way I can describe it.
Again, I'm not saying a 30br is bad...not at all. But, what I am saying is that I have shot many of both and make an informed decision all mybyself.
I'll say this, as I often do...I'm a gunsmith and if I thought a 30 br would give me a better chance of winning, I could be shooting one by lunch tomorrow.
Anyone that hasn't tried both, or anyone who goes with one over the other because someone that hasn't tried both said to...they are doing the same as most ppc shooters. They are simply doing so because it's what everyone else does, but without knowing anything about other good options. Baseless and not very smart decision making process in any other circumstance that I can think of, is the only way I can describe it.
Again, I'm not saying a 30br is bad...not at all. But, what I am saying is that I have shot many of both and make an informed decision all mybyself.
All by yourself? Im a big boy now!
Not me. Gonna stay young as long as I can.
But yeah..you are a purty big boy.
But yeah..you are a purty big boy.
bichettereds
Silver $$ Contributor
You could form to drop the 4.5gr H20 capacity difference, and use the same bullets/powders/barrels and competitive pressures run with 6PPCs.
As a 30BR shows, the magic in this is not the case itself. It's the conditions. The purpose built & viable underbore condition, that could be applied to any cals (given right bullets and powder for each).
But any new design should begin with WHY..
Why does it make sense to do any other than pick up a phone and order turn-key 6PPC?
As a 30BR shows, the magic in this is not the case itself. It's the conditions. The purpose built & viable underbore condition, that could be applied to any cals (given right bullets and powder for each).
But any new design should begin with WHY..
Why does it make sense to do any other than pick up a phone and order turn-key 6PPC?
I got the impression that the op has a rifle with a dedicated br bolt face so that's one reason someone might want to shoot something besides a ppc.
For me, it's as simple as this....I want any advantage I can get..so why do exactly what your competition is doing?
You have to test things to know if something can be improved upon. I enjoy that aspect of the game and I truly feel that there are better options than a ppc or a 30br.
I've already mentioned that I've had many of both and that I shoot a 30 based on a Grendel because I think it gives me a better chance of winning vs a 30 br. This isn't conjecture but rather, I've extensively tested and compared the two. My conclusion was and is that the 30 Major (Grendel) is best. Not by much...but better.
I campaigned a 6 Grendel this year in a 12 twist shooting 80s at 3300fps. So far, I believe that it leaves nothing on the table at 100 yards vs the ppc, and at 200+, it's appears to be what I'd call considerably better than a ppc. It has other benefits vs a ppc as well, like no fire forming. Just neck it from 6.5 to 6mm, turn and burn.
Again, this is not conjecture but what testing has shown me. I won several matches with it this season against lots of ppc's.
Larry Moore campaigned a 12 twist 6Bra. He won the nationals and I believe has the points wrapped up as well, while pretty much kicking our tails with it and his own 80 grain bullets all season long. This is in UBR unlimited class. Before anyone dismisses his accomplishments for not being group matches, try it first. It's a tough game and has some of the best shooters anywhere, in any br game, be it group or score. Is the bra better than a Grendel or a ppc? I don't know yet...but what he did this year with his was impressive. And fwiw, most are shooting a ppc in this game as well. So, it's head to head and winning regularly against what most will tell you are better cartridges for absolute accuracy. Moral of that story is that just because most will parrot the ppc and 30br to be kings of their respective hills, there are people testing and winning with something else, rather than simply going with the flow.
BR is a competition, just like racing. It should encourage people to look for both large and small gains wherever they can be found..It should not be the BR version of nascars defunct IROC series.
Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way but if my goal is to beat you, I don't think following your every move is the best way forward. Rather, it's stagnation.
Regardless of the cartridge the best shooters are always at the top of the list. Most competitors never get one hall of fame point. Personal skills put you on the top of the hill.
True, but that's a different worm hole. I'm talking about same shooter testing different stuff and same shooters getting different results.
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
Most don’t realize. The top guys are constantly looking for an edge everyone assumes the top guys are shooting a ppc they list ppc on equipment lists. But they are constantly searching experimenting
It may just be a shoulder angle on the case. A different bullet a different type of twist or groove in the barrel a new tuner design
There are those guys out there that don’t settle. Keep it up Mike
It may just be a shoulder angle on the case. A different bullet a different type of twist or groove in the barrel a new tuner design
There are those guys out there that don’t settle. Keep it up Mike
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