65.5x.284 brass problem

[M-61]

Unfired new Savage 12BR in 6.5x.284
Fired 16 rounds
Cleaned, de-primed and neck sized brass
Took empty brass and chambered it.
Bolt closed normally
Bolt lifted fine but would NOT extract brass at all without bolt handle being smacked smartly with a leather mallet.
Tried 6 neck sized brass.....all the same results.
This is with empty neck sized brass. (Black Hills)
Took that brass and ran it through a FL sizer....brass chambered and extracted perfectly.
I see NO unusual marks on the neck sized sticky brass.
I'm lost as to what is wrong here.

 

[jhelmuth]

Check the headspace. Sounds like it's on the short side. The cases are crushed/jammed in the chamber but when FL sized they are shortend just enough to keep the empty brass from crushing in the chamber.

 

[M-61]

I do have go and no gauges for this caliber. Never occurred to me as the rifle is brand new...purchased by me.
Is it mandatory to remove the extractor and firing pin from the bolt?

 

[M-61]

I'm LOST...The new factory ammo (Black Hills) chambers,fires, extracts and ejects perfectly.
After I just neck sized only the extraction on empty brass could not be accomplished after the bolt lift without a mallet.
Funny thing I just chambered empty neck sized brass for the heck of it. It is not something I would normally do nor did I have any reason to do it. I just did and this problem happened.

 

[243winxb]

Neck sized with what die/method?

 

[Hombre0321]

I do have go and no gauges for this caliber. Never occurred to me as the rifle is brand new...purchased by me.
Is it mandatory to remove the extractor and firing pin from the bolt?

Sadly on the Savage Yes you do need to remove the firing pin and the extractor to get a consistant head spacing. It is a bear the first time you do it, second time it is a lizard to do it, third time you wonder why you made such a fuss about the first two times. Disassembly of the bolt is not really that big of a deal just a pain in the butt. To de accurate you do need to do this.

Roland

 

[M-61]

Neck sized with a Redding die. Usual procedure. Cleaned cases, lubed neck/shoulder. Die set to touch the shell holder with feeling. Press same as always RCBS A-4. Nothing odd at all. Just the surprise when I chambered the empty brass.

 

[spclark]

Factory dies and factory chambers are often a poor match for one another.

If full-length sizing works where neck sizing alone doesn't, you either need a different die (custom? Maybe!) or a lighter load to avoid stretching cases so much they stick in your chamber.

Factory loads in a tight chamber will mislead you; lighter loads than what you or others have used before may still be quite accurate in a minimum-dimension chamber, you need to find out for yourself what works & what's to avoid.

 

[243winxb]

The bolt face may not be square to the chamber. Will the fired factory brass go back into the chamber? Put an index mark on the case head. See if a different position causes hard chambering before doing any neck sizing.

 

[M-61]

Yes, the fired unsized case will chamber and extract perfectly, and doing it repeatedly in different positions causes no change....all normal.
All 16 Black Hills rounds chambered, fired, and extracted perfectly.
My neck sizing has done something but I have no idea what.
I tried a go gauge and the bolt closed normally. One piece of scotch tape (.002) still allowed the bolt to close with the slightest more effort. Two pieces of tape stopped the bolt solid from not fully closed and solid against trying to lock it down.
This tells me that there is slightly excessive head space. From what I see the head space is at least .002 too much if not .003. The fired cases all appear perfect. Could this head space length be causing this neck sizing problem?
The Black Hills ammo was not reloads but new from them with their headstamp and they load Sierra bullets thus my choice in that purchase. I have always bought one box of factory ammo for a new rifle as it always gave me a starting point for accuracy, feel,etc., as well as the needed empty brass.
I've always neck sized only until enough times that the brass was reloaded required FL sizing.
I very much appreciate the help from those who have responded as I don't have another thought of my own.
Thanks,
Chuck

 

[jhelmuth]

The bolt face may not be square to the chamber. Will the fired factory brass go back into the chamber? Put an index mark on the case head. See if a different position causes hard chambering before doing any neck sizing.

The Savage uses a floating bolt head - it WILL be square to the chamber.

The issue seems to me to be straight forward... factory/stock unfired (and not FL resized) brass is too tight in the chamber when the bolt is closed down on an empty case. The neck is NOT causing that problem - the case is (as the neck has been sized). Now - once the same case is FL sized, the empty case will eject fine (meaning it does not get stuck). It only follws that the FL sizing has resized the case downward enough that the newly sized case is small enough that it no longer gets stuck in the chamber.

Now I've always learned (and followed in my short time) that you always FL size new csaes as they are NOT reliable (size-wise) for direct use from the factory. Additionally, the Savage (and that's ALL I own and shoot) uses a barrel nut to allow for head spacing. It is not unreasonable to think that the headspace was set such that those factory cases are too tight (hence why I recommended he check the headspacing). For my part, I ALWAYS set the headspace (using go gauge) and set up my dies before firing round one. No cartridge gets fired for the first time without a FL sizing.


Just my 2 cents.....

 

[jhelmuth]

Yes, the fired unsized case will chamber and extract perfectly, and doing it repeatedly in different positions causes no change....all normal.
All 16 Black Hills rounds chambered, fired, and extracted perfectly.
My neck sizing has done something but I have no idea what.
I tried a go gauge and the bolt closed normally. One piece of scotch tape (.002) still allowed the bolt to close with the slightest more effort. Two pieces of tape stopped the bolt solid from not fully closed and solid against trying to lock it down.
This tells me that there is slightly excessive head space. From what I see the head space is at least .002 too much if not .003. The fired cases all appear perfect. Could this head space length be causing this neck sizing problem?
The Black Hills ammo was not reloads but new from them with their headstamp and they load Sierra bullets thus my choice in that purchase. I have always bought one box of factory ammo for a new rifle as it always gave me a starting point for accuracy, feel,etc., as well as the needed empty brass.
I've always neck sized only until enough times that the brass was reloaded required FL sizing.
I very much appreciate the help from those who have responded as I don't have another thought of my own.
Thanks,
Chuck

Chuck...

Maybe I misunderstood you - but I would expect that the go-gauge test would have revealed just the opposite - that there is not enough headspace.

[1] New empty unfired and unsized (except neck) case is stuck (no eject + bolt will not extract other than to hit it with a hammer to tap it out).
[2] FL size the same case and it extracts just fine - like normal.


Is that correct (or not)?

 

[M-61]

Sorry for any confusion:
Once I fired the new Black Hills ammo (all o-k) I then NECK sized the fired brass. Took that empty fired neck sized only brass and found that it would chamber correctly. However the bolt opened normally but it is impossible to pull the bolt back (open). I must take a mallet and smack the lifted bolt handle quite smartly to get it to extract the case. No amount of force by hand would budge the bolt rearward.
I have new unfired Norma empty brass. It cycles flawlessly.
Also all 4 of my Black Hills loaded rounds ( that I have left) chamber and extract flawlessly also.
Only the fired neck sized brass is where the problem starts. The head space is of concern but I do not know if that is causing the problem. Also to me, the head space is excessive, not insufficient. The more I think the worse this gets. If the head space is excessive ( by roughly .003 tops) that would cause the brass to stretch and be longer. Neck sizing won't touch that. But I am lost as to what is actually happening here. If the brass did stretch (and not crack split or anything) shouldn't that go in AND extract with out a problem since it is all happening in the one chamber?
Very grateful for the responses!
Chuck

 

[243winxb]

Possible die problem? Try sizing a few with a gap between the shell holder & neck die. The thickness of a nickel coin may change something?? See post #14. Not a subject i know anything about.

Savages are notirious for heavy bolt lift, timming problems, including having a un-ballanced cocking ratio, and being low on primary extraction,

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?83386-Action-Binding Good luck, hope you find whats causing it.

 

[jhelmuth]

Sorry for any confusion:
Once I fired the new Black Hills ammo (all o-k) I then NECK sized the fired brass. Took that empty fired neck sized only brass and found that it would chamber correctly. However the bolt opened normally but it is impossible to pull the bolt back (open). I must take a mallet and smack the lifted bolt handle quite smartly to get it to extract the case. No amount of force by hand would budge the bolt rearward.
I have new unfired Norma empty brass. It cycles flawlessly.
Also all 4 of my Black Hills loaded rounds ( that I have left) chamber and extract flawlessly also.
Only the fired neck sized brass is where the problem starts. The head space is of concern but I do not know if that is causing the problem. Also to me, the head space is excessive, not insufficient. The more I think the worse this gets. If the head space is excessive ( by roughly .003 tops) that would cause the brass to stretch and be longer. Neck sizing won't touch that. But I am lost as to what is actually happening here. If the brass did stretch (and not crack split or anything) shouldn't that go in AND extract with out a problem since it is all happening in the one chamber?
Very grateful for the responses!
Chuck

OK... I understand now.

The issue is with the neck sizing (period).

[1] re-confirm you neck sizing die (which one?) setup, making 2x sure that all components are correct and adjusted per mfg. recommendations.

- and/or -

[2] Try a totally different neck sizing die (like a lee or other brand) - again... making sure it is setup correctly.


I think your issue is with the actual neck size or how the shoulder is being pushed/pulled back.

You are correct on the headspacing - but 0.003" would work in typical factory loads (high pressures would be more problematic). So I would def. wnat to re-set headspacing and make sure my dies were setup to those dimensions such that headspacing is at a comfortable minimum (for me, that is 0.001") to acheive the best accuracy and consistency.

 

[M-61]

1st...I can't thank you enough for your time and help.

dies I am using are Redding (the type that does not have a removable bushing)

I think you are right on the money with an incorrectly set neck die....I think I sized so much of the neck I pushed the neck down into the shoulder enough to cause it to expand just enough to cause it to really stick in the chamber. I went over this this morning and I can see the entire neck is sized and maybe a bit more meaning the marks from sizing go the full length of the neck (then of course you can no longer see any marks as the shoulder starts). There is no reason I know of to size any where near this far never mind how far I went. Of course now I have screwed around so much with the 16 fired cases I have none left to try. I still have 4 factory loaded rounds which I will fire and then following your advice will neck size them after making sure the die is correctly set.
Again many thanks....Chuck

 

[XTR]

Measure the neck on the 4 fired but unsized BHA cases, then do the same for the cases you resized.

 

[M-61]

Of the 16 fired I left one untouched.
Neck o.d. fired not sized = .297
Neck o.d. fired & neck sized sized = .292

 

[jo191145]

If what you suspect is indeed true it sounds as if Redding created a short necksizer.
This stuff happens fairly often. Redding and I'm sure others have specific part numbers for all thier die pcs.
They also have other part numbers that will work in a pinch. If they deem the need for 500 6.5x284 neck sizers but only have 450 correct parts in the bins they sometimes resort to part numbers that are relatively close. Mix and match enough without properly resetting the machinery and you get abnormalities.

Though you may dislike that oddball die look at it this way. Redding just built you a necksizing shoulder bump die for no extra cost.
As long as you keep the bump to a bare minimum it will work in that regard. I've made quite a few out of standard Redding necksizers and all function just fine.

If your bulging the body below the shoulders you should be able to do some careful comparison measuring and prove yourself right/wrong.
Coloring the case with a magic marker and rechambering/extracting will also tell you right where its sticking.
I think your headspace is fine. Within .003" of a go guage leaves you within .001" of a no go. You can't ask for better than that in a factory rifle.