6 Dasher Problems - Help Please>> UPDATE

[22BRGUY]

Re: 6 Dasher Problems - Help Please

Great to hear Dots....Just curious, did you close one eye or 2???? (LOL)

 

[ShootDots]

Re: 6 Dasher Problems - Help Please

Hey 22BRGUY, NOW both my eyes are wide open! Dave's diagnosis was something I would have NEVER considered! I am always learning!

 

[Blaster-37]

Re: 6 MM Dasher Problems and one of the resones ( please share )

Story : A customer called one day and told me he had a well known gunsmith chamber two barrels with the same 6mm Dasher .2704 NK and a .104 freebore . He and his son loaded .105 Hybrids very precisely . One rifle shot fantastic , great accuracy and velocity right on par touching the lands . The other shot poorly with pressure and flyers , very unpredictable . It also had a shiny rub mark on top of the unfired loaded round when cycled and ejected where the other rifle did not mark or rub the projectile . He and I wondered how could this be , I had folks call me and tell me they had the same problem . They were frustrated to the point they swore the reamer was undersized on the throat diameter . I would have folks send in there reamers to check them to find every thing was OK and to print . Well I had Brian plug cast and check the size on the barrel , to my skeptical surprise the barrel that shot lights out at 600 with a .104 fb had a .2434 groove with a .2366 bore . Now the barrel made by the same company , reamed with the same reamer that shot poorly had a .2429 groove and a .2365 bore . Now here is what has been causing a terrible debate for a long time . The question asked by many shooters is why do some folks have great success with the old fashion .104 freebore designed for older Berger's and .107 Sierras and 105 Hornady bullets and some have to purchase throaters or Dasher finishers with .123 to .130 freebore or more . Well here is the real scoop . If a groove is .2429 and you have a bullet that measures .2434 and a reamer @ .2437 you will have a solid band running down the 1-30 lead angle that resembles a bullet mold for about .018 to .023 depending on the reamer angle tolerance . Now if your lucky and have that rifle with the larger groove like Brian's second rifle . Well your out kicking *** on the range with a .104 freebore not even knowing what the hell the guy on the forum is complaining about and shouting he needs a .130 freebore and has to jump the same bullet .030 to get it to perform . Well guess what , Brian ordered a .2436 throater and lengthen his sons throat out .035 and now the tight grooved barrel shoots very close to his .104 touching and both are using the same loaded ammo . Now you all know where the shiny rub mark came from and why its hard to predict what freebore will work and how to determine OAL on Hybrids . Jack Balon sent in some 105 Hybrids that he could not use , I measured them and to my surprise I had to eat crow . You see I had told every one that I had never seen a Berger that measured over .2434 and to my surprise they measured .2439 . Now try swaging those puppy's down a .2429 groove and not have any pressures . You see that's where the .160 freebore comes in . Please don't think one of those sloppy brand X reamers will do the trick at .2445 . You see its not the O.D. cut of the freebore ,its the solid non interrupted portion of the lead angle that causes the problem . That's why a long jump with a maturing pressure helps gradually swage the bullet parallel into the lands and grooves . Well getting late , time to go home . Hope this helps in determining freebore length and understanding that you may have a rifle that is not performing , with bad pressure and all you need to do is push the freebore forward or you may have a rifle that use to kick butt with the older bullets but you put it aside because the keyboard jockeys said it just would not work. My .02 cents . Thank Dave

Listen to Kiff. Kiff is wise, he is also talking to the guys that are making it work. Some people argue with success based wisdom.
Do the research. A 237/243 is a custom order at Krieger. They typically make a 236. Bruno's always orders 237s. Everything matters at 1000 yards, if you want to be competitive.
Greg

 

[762willdo]

Re: 6 Dasher Problems - Help Please

Try this... After pulling the trigger say "one alligator" before releasing the trigger forward, you may be surprised.


Ohh... And listen to anything Mr. Kiff says......

 

[fredhorace77]

Re: 6 Dasher Problems - Help Please

Try this... After pulling the trigger say "one alligator" before releasing the trigger forward, you may be surprised.

I had never heard of this until i took a CCW course..the instructor suggested it to me and while at the range i tried it and it amazed me..my grouping with pistol was cut in half...lol

 

[22BRGUY]

Re: 6 Dasher Problems - Help Please

That's been my problem......I've been always saying 3 crocodiles all these years.



Just kiddin....good point 762....Thanks

 

[ShootDots]

Well after reading Dave Kiff's reply in reference to the Berger Hybrids and my .104 FreeBore and TIGHT barrel, I knew I could no longer use the Hybrids. I called Donovan Moran (DMoran on this web-site) and asked him his opinion on which bullet(s) to shoot. He stated that either use the Berger 105V.L.D.s or the Lapua 105 Scenar. I opted for the V.L.D.'s. I started out at 31.2 and worked my way to 32.1 of Varget using CCI 450 primers. It was quite windy on the day I ran those loads BUT the 32.1 grouped nicely with one bullet "pushed" to the right side of a nice group by the wind. So I decided to load up 25 with that load (15with the 450's and 10 with Fed 205GM's)... Both primers produced excellent shot strings in the 6-9f.t. / sec. e.s.'s.. "Average Speed>>2995f.p.s.".. The Fed's produced a "minor" flyer about 1/2" away from a tiny group. The CCI 450's produced NO SUCH FLYERS and the largest group was 5/8">>the smallest was 1/2" all testing done at 300 yards.. These are 5 shot groups. The next "test" will come on the 3rd Sunday in October where we have our 600 yard F-Class match! Thanks to everyone for their help and a "special thanks" to both Dave Kiff and Donovan Moran for helping me out of this morass!!

 

[bugman]

Can you please produce a photo of these three, 300 yard, 5 shots groups, that ranged from 0.50 to 0.625 inches?

Jack

 

[ShootDots]

I would Bugman BUT I don't have a digital camera>>>I have them on my phone>>BUT it is a cheap phone and no way to get them on here.. If you want I will text them to you.. Give me your cell # in a P.M. and I will text them to you. I simply have got to get a digital camera.. LOL!! If you want, after you receive the text, you can post them for me>>>I would appreciate it.. Thanks..

 

[bugman]

PM sent to ShootDots. As I told the man in the PM, I am not doubting the size of the groups, but would be impressed to see 15 consecutive rounds, at 300 yards, in less than ideal conditions, at 0.16 to .021 MOA. I will post these for him.

Jack

 

[ShootDots]

I never got your PM... I sent you one.... Send PH# back on my pm to you.. Thanks.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Ben, how did you measure your barrel to know that it is a tight bore barrel?
What is the size of the bore?

 

[bugman]

Here is the photo that ShootDots sent me. He said the 10-ring shown in the photo is 1.0 inches in diameter.
Jack

 

[ShootDots]

I did not measure the bore>>>BUT it must be a tight bore because of 2 things... 1.) according to BOTH Dave Kiff and Donovan Moran, IF you have a tight bore and a .104 FreeBore, you will have LOTS of problems with the Berger 105Hybrids. Which I did.. AND 2.) with "relatively modest" loadings, I am getting high velocity.. With the Hybrids and 32.5grs of Varget I was getting almost 3100f.p.s. and once the barrel got a little hot, I was losing primers>>falling out of the primer pocket.. I discontinued those and pulled the bullets... I backed WAY down to 31.3grs of Varget and worked my way to 32.1grs with the 105VLD,s>>>No pressure signs BUT almost 3000f.p.s.>>>those 2 "items" tell me I have a tight bore..

 

[ShootDots]

Thanks Bugman, I appreciate you posting those for me...

 

[ShootDots]

Now that all the "Hoop-Lah" is over and the dust has settled, I appreciate everyone's help! This has been some ordeal. I have been at this "game" a L-O-N-G time and when I can't figure something out, it is "out of the realm of normalcy"! That's why this site and the Forum Members here are the best in the business! Thanks Again All!!

 

[smoking-brass]

Ben...I was going to give you my two cents...but...I could not afford to give it away!! Nice groups...glad the dashed is shooting now! Vince

 

[ShootDots]

Well Vince, maybe I ought to drag that Dasher up there for one of your Mid-Range matches! Maybe we could time it so that we shoot at Peru and either Albany or Vermont before I would have to head home! We shall see... But I also know I would be facing your 6mmBR and I KNOW how both you and that rifle shoot!! It would be fun!!

 

[smoking-brass]

That would be excellent!! The boys would not know what hit them!

 

[falconpilot]

Ben

Glad you got your Dasher shooting. My last barrel was a "tight bore"...ie....236 and it shoot the hybrids really good. Did you ever try jumping the hybrids 50 to 60 thousands off?? If you didn't, it might be worth a try when you get time..

Jim