6 Dasher and Varget - First time out

[bsumoba]

Was able to get to the range after work and got some rounds down the barrel.

I had about 20 rounds of hydroformed 6 Dasher brass and about 13-15 of the false shoulder method.

Started with a few "break-in" rounds. After about 8 shots and a couple cleans, I decided to start shooting for groups. Started with the false shoulder brass and three charge weights of 29, 29.5, and 30 gr of Varget with 105gr hybrids loaded about 10K out. All three grouped into a clover leaf 4 shout group with the 29.5 and 30gr showing the best results. I thing 29.5gr went into a 1/4" group. This was at 100 yards by the way.

Next set of groups were the hydroformed brass. I had these loaded at 32.5, 32.8, 33.1, 33.4 grains. 32.5 and 32.8 showed the best results, grouping into about 3/8", but between the two, were about the same vertical and horizontal shift...might be a node here. 33.1 and 33.4 gr shot HORRIBLE, shooting into about 3/4" groups.

Tomorrow, I am set up for more false shoulder rounds in 29.5, 29.7 and 30 gr to see if the results are the same and to get velocity numbers so I do fireforming during a local match. Next set will be two groups of charge weights. One group will be 32.2, 32.4, and 32.6 with. Next group is to test if there is a higher node, so I loaded some 33.7, 34, and 34.3gr. With my long FB and me loaded quite a bit out, I am hoping that I will see a node here. I will be running a magneto on the first few shots to get an idea on velocities. I will post when I get back.

Needless to say, the 6 Dasher is just easy to shoot and from what I can see, will be an accurate rifle.

 

[wapiti25]

+1 on the charges being high at 33gr in my gun, 32.4gr is max for me with 105 VLD's

 

[Chaotik]

In all of my dashers, my max load with Varget is 32.6, which gives me almost 3000 fps using a 29" barrel.

I use 29.5 gr of Varget for fireforming with the false shoulder method with good results.

 

[Jet]

Bryan

Listen to the words above. With my BAT actions I stay below 33.3gr of Varget. No need to search higher, you will find the accuracy and velocity you are looking for with the charge weights you already tried.

I have been using Erik Cortina's load development steps and it has worked great for finding the right tune.

Good Shooting.

Rich

 

[bsumoba]

thanks for the advice guys. I will run 1 round of each on the magneto before shooting them. I had a feeling I would be at around 32.3-32.5 gr in reality. I'm looking to get speeds right around 3030-3050 so if I get that with 32.2-32.5, then I won't even shoot the higher charge weights. to be fair, I have a long throat and am seated a ways out. I think my FB is 0.155, hence my thinking of running a little higher charge, but I always work up ans I saw absolutely no pressure at 33.4, but then again it shot horrible so maybe that was a sign that it doesn't like being that high.

 

[CaptainMal]

Did you ever state what weight bullet you are using?

That's a big deal with loads. Same would be barrel twist. Neither were addressed and should have been one of the first things discussed - plus barrel length.

My new Stolle has a 30" 7.5 twist barrel. I did NOT want to use Varget because of the carbon fouling issue. 4166 did not work and I could not get H4350. Went back to Varget and ended up getting 3010fps with 105 gr. bullets using 33.5 gr. Target with NO pressure signs.

Tested to 33.7 grs. in 90+ degree temperatures. Beware of the lot of Varget. My mix lot must be slow. Yours can be hot. All those issues are factors. Target is famous for having major energy issues lot to lot.

 

[Phil]

Bryan,

What are the case lengths????

Are you seeing any difference in length since you are both hydro forming and false shoulder forming????

Phil.

 

[bsumoba]

Alright, came back from the range. Here is the range report and I would like to get some input on my groups.

To start out, here are the specs of my F-Class rifle:
Bat M action
30" 5R Bartlein 1:8 twist
105gr Hybrids
Varget
0.0125" turned brass, hydroform and false shoulder using a 25 cal mandrel - all Lapua 6BR
Used bushing FL die with 0.002" neck tension on hydro and 0.003" on false shoulder
All rounds are 10K out and I have a .155 FB.

Atmospherics: 68 degrees, Sunny, a lot of mirage, 50% humidity

So, here are the fireformed brass specs:
Neck OD: 0.270"
hydro blow length: 1.5290"
false shoulder blow length: 1.405"

Here is a pic of the primers. Left is the false shoulder. Right is the hydroformed brass:

Here is a pic of the fired brass. Left is the false shoulder. Right is the hydroformed brass. I noticed the false shoulder brass are still slightly rounded while the hydroformed brass were pretty sharp.

Okay, now here are the groups:

Day 1: all 4-shot groups

Day 2: middle row is 3-shot groups (hydro), bottom row is 4-shots (false shoulder)

Okay, now my questions and comments:

Keep in mind, I was fighting bad mirage the whole shooting session and had a few bad fliers that opened up the groups

* On day 1, I had excellent fireforming groups with the false shoulder and 29-30gr of Varget. I decided to run this again on day 2, tightening up the charges to 29.5 - 29.7 - 30.0 grains.

* On day 1 for the hydroformed brass, I started right out the gate with "standard" 6 Dasher powder charges since it seemed to have blown out really well and thought it would be a good time to get some preliminary load development going. 32.5-32.8 seemed to show signs of similar shot patterns. I thought I was a little low on velocity and admittedly did not chrono on day 1. This is why I initially thought of going up in charge beyond 33.4 grains. 33.1-33.4 grains were horrible as mentioned. After reading the posts this AM, I pulled those rounds, neck sized the brass back to 0.002" and loaded 32.3-32.8 grains instead

* Day 2, I chrono'd the charges...all out of a V3 Magneto.

False Shoulder:
29.5 - 2699, 2687
29.7 - 2705, 2692
30 - 2718, 2728

Hydro:
32.2 - 2894, 2905
32.4 - 2908, 2900
32.6 - 2918, 2918
32.8 - 2936, 2943

This was shot in round robin fashion and based on this, I thought 32.2-32.4 would be good because of the consistent velocities across a 0.2 gr spread. However, 32.6gr showed promise because of the consistent velocity. 32.8 also seemed good as well as it was right in the wheelhouse velocity that I was looking for, but there was noticeable velocity increase versus 32.6. In hindsight, I should have loaded up 33 gr again as Day 1 might have been just me or the fact that it was still a new'ish barrel. I will be trying the same charge weights again on Friday from 32.2-33.2 but with fully formed, once fired brass.

* 32.4-33.6 grain spread had similar POI, with 32.2-32.6 showing similar vertical POI. 32.8 dropped a little, but was the best 3-shot group of the day.

* For the false shoulder brass, I thought about staying around 29.8-30.0 grains as the groups are consistent for POI, but the 29.5-29.7 had similar velocities over a 0.2gr spread. The groups opened up on day 2, but this was the last shots of the day and mirage was really affecting me, but on Day 1, I saw the potential for the fireform loads since this was the first shots of the day and mirage had not picked up yet.

* I have some concerns for the blow lengths. a 0.020" spread seems concerning to me. Should I be?

* What do you see in my groups and velocities?

 

[BradY]

If your still only a hundred or so shots into the barrel you might see it speed up the next hundred or so. Beware that if it seems to change results this could be the problem and you might need to adjust powder up or down to find the node again.

Aside from that I would be loading fireformed brass at 32.6gr and tweaking seating depth 3 thousandths at a time further away from the lands.

My guess is you would find a node up around 33.6-33.8gr too but it may be too hot for your rifle. I once used 32gr H4895 and 105 hybrids in my rifle and it shot brilliantly, but brass was toast after 7-8 firings. BR brass shouldnt be getting loose primer pockets and if it is BACK OFF!

 

[CaptainMal]

I'm going to maybe read as dumb as I look but you say things I do not understand.

Why the constant separation of hydro and false-shoulder brass? Once you do that first form SHOOT the things again to get a consistent case form and length. I never waste my time playing with all that silly case forming. I just stick in a reasonable powder charge, JAM the bullet a solid .050, shoot and then do a normal test shoot again. During that 2nd test shoot my standards to find a load are not all that high though you sure can see what might work.

After a couple firings I trim to 1.550" (now you are not close to that so I can't figure that out) and go for my final testing.

You seem to be testing using brass that was either never fired but hydroformed or just fire-formed using the false-shoulder method. That's fine but your final product is probably still not right. At least from your length discussion I think they are all short.

Now I really did not offer any help as I can't figure out why you keep talking about the middle stage of brass formation as if it were the final stage. Sure you can get good groups and maybe find a load with brass not perfect. Then again, you never know. Form after a second firing and you will know.

 

[dkhunt14]

I have the .155 freebore reamer and can run 34 to 34.2 and it is not max. At Williamsport almost everybody uses a .155 freebore and runs 34 plus. The velocity is usually around 3025 to 3050. It gives great accuracy and is not overly hot. Most are shooting 105 VLD's and 107 Sierras. Usually if you are getting carbon with Varget you are not cleaning good enough or your pressure isn't high enough to burn it. I have not had a problem with carbon or anybody else I know. I fireform with 30 grains of varget and some of my best 1000 yard groups are in the next firing. They are blown out to headspace but the shoulders are not fully sharp. Matt

 

[bsumoba]

I have the .155 freebore reamer and can run 34 to 34.2 and it is not max. At Williamsport almost everybody uses a .155 freebore and runs 34 plus. The velocity is usually around 3025 to 3050. It gives great accuracy and is not overly hot. Most are shooting 105 VLD's and 107 Sierras. Usually if you are getting carbon with Varget you are not cleaning good enough or your pressure isn't high enough to burn it. I have not had a problem with carbon or anybody else I know. I fireform with 30 grains of varget and some of my best 1000 yard groups are in the next firing. They are blown out to headspace but the shoulders are not fully sharp. Matt

That's what I thought.

I will just have to simply load a couple rounds of each all the way up to say 34.6 and when they start to get to pressure, then I know where my max is with a round at touch/jam.

Something tells me that I will find a node around 34+, but that's my theory.

 

[falconpilot]

34 grains of varget will trash your brass..

 

[JDMock]

33.0 gr. of Varget w/105 Hybrids will trash my brass. Part of my problem may be the .095 freebore and the .236 diameter bore.(also, the 95 degree temps don't help). I have had good luck with 32.0 gr. and jumping the hybrids about .015 -.020 inch. Good shooting

 

[ShootDots]

I have a .155 freebore reamer so I could run the 105 Hybrids. However, in 3 different barrels, one of them a 1-7.50 twist, I could NOT get them to shoot anywhere near as accurately as my Berger 105 VLD's or my 105 JLK's. So I stayed with the VLD style bullets. My one load with the 105 Berger was 32.7grs of Varget. With VV N540 it was 33.0grs.. 1200 rounds later, I finally got some more 105 JLK's. I used my StonyPoint O.A.L. guage and found that the JLK's were just touching the lands so far out of my case that only about 1/16th of an inch of bearing surface was in the case. I am now in the process of having my rifle set back, and this time with a .104 freebore. I said all this to say a couple of things: 1.) IF I tried to use the JLK's with them seated so far out, I MAY have been able to shoot somewhere around 34.0grs. with VV N540 Maybe!! But even with the .155 freebore, when it was new, the JLK's could only take 33.4grs and I got a bit of a hard bolt lift. I KNOW I could NOT have reached 34.0gr without either blowing primers or locking up my bolt. 2.) with the L-O-N-G strings of fire in F-Open, especially in the summer, those 65,000P.S.I.'s of pressure eat the throat up at an alarming pace! With a .155 freebore, you already have much less bearing surface in the case as opposed to a .104-.115 class freebore.

For F-Open, I would stay with a .104-.115 freebore and shoot VLD's somewhere between 31.7 and 33.0grs of powder. If you went with .155 freebore, as I did, you will be setting your barrel back A LOT sooner than you think! If you are going to shoot L/R Benchrest, without near the shot strings, you could use a .155freebore.. Just my 2 cents..

I just thought of something. 6mm barrels come in .236 and .237 bores. If you had a generous freebore AND a .237 bore, combined with the short bearing surface of a VLD bullet (compared to the lengthy Hybrid), YOU may stand some semblance of a chance to get towards 34.0grs. However, even with those parameters, 34.0grs would definitely be on the ragged edge, IMHO!!

 

[bsumoba]

I have a a 1:8 twist .237 bore. My 7.5 twists will be the same bore. I considered a shorter FB for the VLDs and I just might get one. Im determined to make the hybrid work but we'll see. I keep hearing the same thing as you that hybrid is not working out for some.

Maybe they're all trying to shoot them in the short FB ???

I bought 200 pieces of 105 VLD to try them out. I hear some people jumping VLDs and having some success with it. Who knows...

 

[ShootDots]

I have a a 1:8 twist .237 bore. My 7.5 twists will be the same bore. I considered a shorter FB for the VLDs and I just might get one. Im determined to make the hybrid work but we'll see. I keep hearing the same thing as you that hybrid is not working out for some.

Maybe they're all trying to shoot them in the short FB ???

I bought 200 pieces of 105 VLD to try them out. I hear some people jumping VLDs and having some success with it. Who knows...

I have several friends that tried the Hybrids to no avail. However, there is one of my friends who has a barrel that eats them up like candy. Now to be fair, his barrel shoots the JLK's equally as well.

I was determined to make the Hybrid work too. But after 3 barrels and nearly 700 rounds, I believed it to be an effort in futility. Am I bashing the Hybrid>>NO WAY! But for PURE accuracy in MOST barrels, the VLD's will shine with no peers.
I have found that either 12-15K into the lands or just a hair (2-4K) off the lands works for the VLD's. However, I get few, if any flyers with the VLD's IN the lands. I do get, seldom as it were, flyers, when set just off the lands.

 

[Hoier]

I to am done with the hybrids. I have shot thousands of them from 4 different barrels and I am not impressed. I shoot the 108s now and will be trying the new Bart's this week.

 

[ShootDots]

I to am done with the hybrids. I have shot thousands of them from 4 different barrels and I am not impressed. I shoot the 108s now and will be trying the new Bart's this week.

I am very curious as to how the new Bart's will shoot. I know that Donovan Moran tested them and they were impressive. Once I deplete my supply of JLK's (just received 1000) I will get the Bart's if the reviews hold good.. Let us know of your results if you would please.. Thanks..

 

[Hoier]

I will Ben. I won't know much till probably next week, this week I'll figure out my powder charge.