Hi all. Have a CZ 527 MTR in 6.5 Grendel and I'd like to use it to shoot steel out to 1200 yards. Has anyone had any luck using this combo? I have some 120gr Hornady pills, but they seem far too long for the throat in this rifle. Any real world reloading data using hogdon powders would be appreciated also. Cheers.
6.5 Grendel @ 1000 yards
- Thread starter Barossa_222
- Start date
Barossa,
Nothing in Hogdon, but I'm running a gas gun with a 24" barrel. I've been loading IMR-8208 at 25.6-8grs of powder and regularly get .5" and below groups. I've had her out to 1100 yds with half MOA accuracy. I would really like to see some hard data on Hogdon powder. I've been using it a lot more the IMR here lately.
Also, I'm running 123gr A-max.
Nothing in Hogdon, but I'm running a gas gun with a 24" barrel. I've been loading IMR-8208 at 25.6-8grs of powder and regularly get .5" and below groups. I've had her out to 1100 yds with half MOA accuracy. I would really like to see some hard data on Hogdon powder. I've been using it a lot more the IMR here lately.
Also, I'm running 123gr A-max.
Not having them over here, I don't have any experience loading for autos. How does powder charge go vs a bolt gun? Is there much difference with regards to pressure? I'd assume you could run more with a bolt gun??
You can load bolt guns up a lot more. SAAMI MAP is 52,000 psi in deference to the AR-15 bolt. European CIP Is 4,050 bar / 58, 740 psi measured in a slightly different way. The latter is what a bolt gun should happily take.
I have a Howa Mini 1500 'Oryx' chambered for the cartridge with the factory 20-inch 'heavy' (not really!) barrel. It shoots well with bullets it likes and the Howa is much better suited to single-loading rounds than the Cz527, so a bit longer than standards COALs can be employed where the chamber throat allows. With 20 inches up front, c. 2,400 fps is feasible coupled to half-MOA five shot groups from 120s and 123s.
Case capacity is the limiting factor in both MVs and bullet weights. 2,400 is quite achievable with small grain extrudeds - my favourite is Viht N133, but have yet to try Alliant AR-Comp which has a good reputation. For higher MVs, the higher-energy/denser ball powders such as Ramshot TAC, Accurate-2520, Lovex DO73.6 (Shooter World 'Match Rifle' in the US), and probably best of all Hodgdon CFE-223 are needed. With the MTR's longer barrel, you should get above 2,500 fps with 123s with them. Although some companies give loads for 140gn class bullets, I believe 130gn is the practical / ballistic limit. (I hope great things from the 130gn Berger OTM Tactical in the Howa.)
Sadly thanks to Covid and six months aggregate lockdowns since a year ago closing the ranges and banning travel in the UK, my ability to do further development / testing on the little Grendel has been heavily curtailed.
Run the external ballistics for the best of the 123s (new version 'pointed' 123gn SMK according to Bryan Litz, maybe the Nosler RDF which his bullet review book doesn't include) at around 2,500 fps and you're transonic around 900 yards and passing through the sound barrier before 1,100 in standard ballistic conditions. (But being in Oz, you may shoot under far more favourable ambient conditions.) Modern HPBT match bullets often perform very well too even when going trans and subsonic - but you don't know until you try. Nevertheless, I'd have thought the Grendel marginal for 1,200 yards plates. But if you shoot at 4,000 ft ASL in temperatures in the 90s, you'd likely be fine.
For everything to do with the cartridge, components, loads and its rifles, there is a specialised owners' forum 65grendel.com
I have a Howa Mini 1500 'Oryx' chambered for the cartridge with the factory 20-inch 'heavy' (not really!) barrel. It shoots well with bullets it likes and the Howa is much better suited to single-loading rounds than the Cz527, so a bit longer than standards COALs can be employed where the chamber throat allows. With 20 inches up front, c. 2,400 fps is feasible coupled to half-MOA five shot groups from 120s and 123s.
Case capacity is the limiting factor in both MVs and bullet weights. 2,400 is quite achievable with small grain extrudeds - my favourite is Viht N133, but have yet to try Alliant AR-Comp which has a good reputation. For higher MVs, the higher-energy/denser ball powders such as Ramshot TAC, Accurate-2520, Lovex DO73.6 (Shooter World 'Match Rifle' in the US), and probably best of all Hodgdon CFE-223 are needed. With the MTR's longer barrel, you should get above 2,500 fps with 123s with them. Although some companies give loads for 140gn class bullets, I believe 130gn is the practical / ballistic limit. (I hope great things from the 130gn Berger OTM Tactical in the Howa.)
Sadly thanks to Covid and six months aggregate lockdowns since a year ago closing the ranges and banning travel in the UK, my ability to do further development / testing on the little Grendel has been heavily curtailed.
Run the external ballistics for the best of the 123s (new version 'pointed' 123gn SMK according to Bryan Litz, maybe the Nosler RDF which his bullet review book doesn't include) at around 2,500 fps and you're transonic around 900 yards and passing through the sound barrier before 1,100 in standard ballistic conditions. (But being in Oz, you may shoot under far more favourable ambient conditions.) Modern HPBT match bullets often perform very well too even when going trans and subsonic - but you don't know until you try. Nevertheless, I'd have thought the Grendel marginal for 1,200 yards plates. But if you shoot at 4,000 ft ASL in temperatures in the 90s, you'd likely be fine.
For everything to do with the cartridge, components, loads and its rifles, there is a specialised owners' forum 65grendel.com
All indication are that LeverEvolution powder provides the greatest velocity with CFE 223 in 2nd place. The only concern for these two powders is that they are temp sensitive so just plan ahead if you are shooting in area that experiences large seasonal weather swings.
Also, if you are serious about shooting long distance with the rig then you might also consider a custom barrel to ensure precision/accuracy and when you have the chamber reamed make certain that you can fit your preferred bullet (load a dummy case) stretched as long as your magazine can hold.
Also, if you are serious about shooting long distance with the rig then you might also consider a custom barrel to ensure precision/accuracy and when you have the chamber reamed make certain that you can fit your preferred bullet (load a dummy case) stretched as long as your magazine can hold.
I only have access to ADI powders and the rifle needs to be in factory condition, so a custom barrel is out of the question.
AR-2219, Bench Mark 8208, Bench Mark 2, and 2206H would all work in the Grendel with 123/130gn class bullets. BM 8208 (as IMR-8208 XBR) is very popular in the US in the cartridge, and many there reckon it the best all-rounder. I've given it a brief go with some left-overs I had and found it promising, but as it (and all other ADI manufactured powders) are no longer available in the UK on health & safety grounds, can't comment further on it or the other ADI grades.
Of the quartet, 8208 and 2206H (H4895) give the highest MVs in the cartridge with this bullet weight according to QuickLOAD and would seem to be the ones to try in your situation.
Both of my 1st & 2nd thoughts have been ruled out here.1st thought was re-barrel to 6mm ARC.
In terms of Propellant, Hodgdon Lever evolution was my 2nd thought for either 6mm arc or 6,5 Grendel.
Leverevolution although a Hodgdon brand product isn't an ADI powder as available to the OP. Whilst Hodgdon single-based tubular 'Extreme' branded powders are all made in Australia by Thales Australia / ADI, Hodgdon's 'spherical' and 'Hybrid' double-based grades are made in the USA by General Dynamics Corp / St. Marks Powder Co in the former Olin Industries / Primex plant in St. Marks FLA.
Have you gauged the chamber to see what the touch length is on the rifllings? I have to run my 120s and 123grs at OAL 2.260" to get them in the mags. Have a hard time thinking you have a chamber that is shorter then that on a bolt gun. I would load those 120grs and send them to see how they shoot!
Also, I am starting to work up some loads with 123gr Hornady BTHPs with H335. I know you are looking for Hogdon data, so I'll let you know how they shoot!
Rob
1/8 for the CZ MTR .
Pressure is not only lower than for a bolt gun but powder burn rate is critical. In the AR platform there are 3 different length gas tubes, then multiple different piston configurations for piston rifles.
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This is the first time I have ever heard someone say that a bolt gun has lower pressure standards then a gas gun. Everything I have ever read would say the reverse. I am not say you are wrong, but if I am, I would really like to educate myself. Can you point me to where you got your information? This is a big deal for me. I've always been willing to push a bolt gun harder then a gas gun!
Rob
Sandstorm
Gold $$ Contributor
Hey David can you clarify..im a bit perplexed with your comment.
Some guys with Grendel ARs and short barrels can regularly ring steel even past 1300 yards.
They use standard loads. That means one does not need to hot load the CZ to do OK at that range.
Here’s one example: https://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?11666-1000yd-Results-with-Lilja-17-6-quot-Barrel
They use standard loads. That means one does not need to hot load the CZ to do OK at that range.
Here’s one example: https://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?11666-1000yd-Results-with-Lilja-17-6-quot-Barrel
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I had a typo I changed the original post it is lower than for a bolt gun
Typo it should read lower than for a bolt gun
David, technically by the Army’s ammo standard in pure pressure numbers you were right the first time.The M16 platform proof ammo numbers are actually higher than for 7.62. However, due to the AR bolt design, I wouldn’t shoot 70K loads with 65 grendel bolt.
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