6.5 Creedmoor brass and primer question.

[Laurie]

I have yet to see any improvement on paper or in performance when using a small primer in the Creedmoor. Unless you have a firing pin bushed or a custom action plan on using CCI #450's or you will have pierced primer problems. I much rather use the large rifle primers and avoid the hassle of changing out components in my priming press and reloading dies to handle the small primer.

That's why I've opted for 260 Rem in my FN SPR now on its second 6.5 rebarrel. SP primed brass was hopeless in this (Winchester 70 pre-64 type) action with blanking at very low loads. A bushing job is £300 ($380 US) in the UK which is just too expensive when there are LR alternatives. But if I have to use LRP brass, I'll stick to the higher case capacity 260 and run it long-throated to get bullets in the right place rather than move to the Creedmoor.

Having said that, my experience with early Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass was that its case-head construction is in no respect capable of delivering the cartridge's rated 62,000 psi SAAMI pressure - well, not for more than two loadings at best! In practice, both factory ammunition and handloading data appear to run at 57-58,000 psi, in other words no advance on the quarter century old 260 (half century really with the 260's various 6.5-08 wildcat antecedents). With SP Lapua brass, people I compete against are producing some impressive MVs from the Creedmoors (6mm and 6.5mm) in suitably chambered 28-30 inch barrels and giving impressive precision too. The brass takes what must be very high pressures without complaint ........ but the barrel throats less so. (Shades of going round in circles and returning to the 6.5-284 with its barrel hungry habits!)

 

[ngb1787]

Dont worry about pocket size, learn how to read the wind

 

[dnellans]

It was tested in early 2018 thru ammunition pressure test barrels as well as accuracy barrels.

There was absolutely no practical difference in performance from a 100 to 1k yards.

So in my opinion as of right now....pick your poison.

I’ve only shot large primers (that’s the ammo and brass I only have for now) and I cannot complain about anything.

Eventually I’ll try small primer out of curiosity.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

FrankG -> Bartlein Barrels -> uses small primers -> supports Precision Rifle Series... The Best!

 

[dnellans]

Not to hi-jack, but along those lines....

Has anyone beat on the Winchester or Remington creedmoor brass? I'm just getting geared up to load for the one I bought, and I got a deal on some 1x fired Win and Rem brass. There were also a few Horn and Fed cases mixed in. I have more RP brass than Win, but when I checked capacity the Win had 3 to 4/10's more which mirrored the Hornady cases I received. So the Win cases will get the call first. This is LR primer of course.

I got 8 firings on Winchester with a pretty hot load (pushing 147's at 2800) before primer pockets started to get loose here and there but not gross failure. I decided to just switch to Alpha brass with a new barrel rather than start with 8x fired brass on a new barrel... There is a much larger variation in case weight with Win, Hornady brass than if you start with Alpha, Lapua, or some others. If you weight sort and turn necks, you probably can come up with a couple sets that are all within a grain of each other and perform very well though.

 

[flatlander]

I've always thought that David Tubb probably looked into using small primer pockets on the 6XC while working at getting brass for it made. Seems like he posted just that in a reply to the question of which size primer & why years ago - whether here or on a different long-defunct forum, I don't recall. But IIRC, the main reason he went with large primer pockets was ES & Sd numbers in cold weather conditions - and over the past 10+yrs of shooting 6x47 Lapua in several different rifles, I've seen some rather large spreads when shooting in temps from 40*F and under. Case capacity of the 6 or 6.5x47 is less than either the 6XC or 6/6.5 Creedmoor, so I'd expect the issue to only get worse as case capacity increases. I don't go out of my way to travel to a PRS or NRA Prone HP match if the temps are forecast to be colder than 40*F - I'm doing this for recreation, no other reason. Why travel 150+miles each way to be uncomfortable while trying to shoot?

 

[Laurie]

But IIRC, the main reason he went with large primer pockets was ES & Sd numbers in cold weather conditions - and over the past 10+yrs of shooting 6x47 Lapua in several different rifles, I've seen some rather large spreads when shooting in temps from 40*F and under. Case capacity of the 6 or 6.5x47 is less than either the 6XC or 6/6.5 Creedmoor, so I'd expect the issue to only get worse as case capacity increases.

This is definitely an issue with 308 'Palma' brass ammunition, although it depends on the make/grade of powder in the load and how easily it ignites. I've long been wary when temperatures drop below 5-deg C or thereabouts with some combinations, so very much in your 40F or under ballpark. This is an issue as we have year round F-Class matches - my primary club started its championship series off last Saturday, only 5th January - so we can get down to freezing on occasions even in the mild British climate.

When 308 Palma brass first appeared in the UK, I did a side by side comparison of standard v small primer Lapua on a (deliberately selected) chilly winter's day with temperatures around 2-3 deg C and placed the ammunition on the bench so that it was in the line of a cool wind. There were charge-ranges of three or four different powders, Viht N140 and N150 as single-based types, N550 for one with nitroglycerin content, and a long-established 'ball' grade, Hodgdon spherical H414 given this type's known propensity for needing more aggressive ignition especially in low temperatures. The only powder where the Palma loads proved inferior was Viht N140 with very disappointing ES values and group sizes. Its Palma loads were reshot a few months later in the spring and 'normal service' was resumed in higher temperatures, so this powder at any rate appeared to be sensitive to ignition strength in low temperatures. The biggest surprise was H414 where not only did the SP cartridges produce same or more usually better ES ranges than LRP and slightly smaller groups, but MVs were also slightly higher for any given charge weight - completely the reverse of normal SP v LP results.

I wouldn't read a ball powder affinity to milder primer power into this finding though. I had Hodgdon's / Gen Dynamics - St. Marks Powder Co. CFE223 fail completely on me with 308 Palma loads a couple of years back, and not in what one would call low temperatures either. Three figure ES values with some charge weights, low MVs until just before maximum when they suddenly shot up, hangfires across the board, and two ex fifty rounds complete misfires. On pulling the FtFs, both primers had fired and were quite burned out, but I could find no affected powder granules in the charges - no clumping, scorching, loss of graphite coatings etc. As far as I could see, the charges seemed completely unaffected by the primer action. (I also tried the powder in standard LP brass the same day with the same make of primer and although I found CFE 'peaky', there were no ignition issues, and reasonable ES values - in top, full pressure loads anyway.)

There is a faction on this forum that argues that SP / small flash-hole is only usable up to and including the 6.5X47mm Lapua case and that it is inefficient / liable to fail in anything with higher capacity. I wouldn't agree with this view - thousands of 308 Win FTR shooters around the planet using them successfully rather disputes this view - but I suspect that not ALL powders will work well in them, and certainly so when low temperatures add to the primer's workload. Somebody (maybe Alex Wheeler?) in the discussion on this issue in another thread said that newly introduced 243 Win SP brass gave poor ESs in heavy bullet H1000 match loads.

 

[dminn1]

This is definitely an issue with 308 'Palma' brass ammunition, although it depends on the make/grade of powder in the load and how easily it ignites. I've long been wary when temperatures drop below 5-deg C or thereabouts with some combinations, so very much in your 40F or under ballpark. This is an issue as we have year round F-Class matches - my primary club started its championship series off last Saturday, only 5th January - so we can get down to freezing on occasions even in the mild British climate.

When 308 Palma brass first appeared in the UK, I did a side by side comparison of standard v small primer Lapua on a (deliberately selected) chilly winter's day with temperatures around 2-3 deg C and placed the ammunition on the bench so that it was in the line of a cool wind. There were charge-ranges of three or four different powders, Viht N140 and N150 as single-based types, N550 for one with nitroglycerin content, and a long-established 'ball' grade, Hodgdon spherical H414 given this type's known propensity for needing more aggressive ignition especially in low temperatures. The only powder where the Palma loads proved inferior was Viht N140 with very disappointing ES values and group sizes. Its Palma loads were reshot a few months later in the spring and 'normal service' was resumed in higher temperatures, so this powder at any rate appeared to be sensitive to ignition strength in low temperatures. The biggest surprise was H414 where not only did the SP cartridges produce same or more usually better ES ranges than LRP and slightly smaller groups, but MVs were also slightly higher for any given charge weight - completely the reverse of normal SP v LP results.

I wouldn't read a ball powder affinity to milder primer power into this finding though. I had Hodgdon's / Gen Dynamics - St. Marks Powder Co. CFE223 fail completely on me with 308 Palma loads a couple of years back, and not in what one would call low temperatures either. Three figure ES values with some charge weights, low MVs until just before maximum when they suddenly shot up, hangfires across the board, and two ex fifty rounds complete misfires. On pulling the FtFs, both primers had fired and were quite burned out, but I could find no affected powder granules in the charges - no clumping, scorching, loss of graphite coatings etc. As far as I could see, the charges seemed completely unaffected by the primer action. (I also tried the powder in standard LP brass the same day with the same make of primer and although I found CFE 'peaky', there were no ignition issues, and reasonable ES values - in top, full pressure loads anyway.)

There is a faction on this forum that argues that SP / small flash-hole is only usable up to and including the 6.5X47mm Lapua case and that it is inefficient / liable to fail in anything with higher capacity. I wouldn't agree with this view - thousands of 308 Win FTR shooters around the planet using them successfully rather disputes this view - but I suspect that not ALL powders will work well in them, and certainly so when low temperatures add to the primer's workload. Somebody (maybe Alex Wheeler?) in the discussion on this issue in another thread said that newly introduced 243 Win SP brass gave poor ESs in heavy bullet H1000 match loads.

I run converted Lapua Palma brass in two of my .243's with 105 Berger Hybrids and RL-26. Due to the temperature sensitivity I have had with this powder I only run this load when the temperature is 50 or less in the fall and winter months. I run around 47g of this powder and use CCI 450 primers. Performance is excellent with es below 20 and single digit sd over 20 shot strings in last weekends mid 40 temps. I have had equally good results in temps at and below freezing. In my 2 years experience with this combo I would say small primer brass is a benefit not a handicap.

 

[Laurie]

I run converted Lapua Palma brass in two of my .243's with 105 Berger Hybrids and RL-26.

Interesting. Alongside 308, I use it necked down in 7mm-08 with compressed charges of Viht N160. Again, no issues in any sensible temperature. As I say, this seems to be powder-specific. As with your Re26 load, that's 47gn, actually a shade more. (I've run it with a shade over 50gn N165 without ignition issues too, just COALs all over the place because of excessively compressed charges at this level.)

Due to the temperature sensitivity I have had with this powder I only run this load when the temperature is 50 or less in the fall and winter months.

Ah well, there goes another manufacturer's claim of good temperature stability! We don't have Re26 (or sadly Re16) in the UK, although the former is made by Nitrochemie and we have a range of its products here under the 'Reload Swiss' name, not this one though. Some of the other Reload Swiss 'EI' high-energy enhanced nitroglycerin powders have proven to be rather temperature affected too.

 

[flatlander]

Laurie,
Thanks for the reply. I've not purchased any of the Lapua Palma brass, nor have I done any shooting with any other brand of brass (larger than 6BR) with SR pockets, aside from the x47 case, so I'm certainly no authority on the matter. However, I'm rather enamoured with the 7-08 Improved 30* cartridge, and am looking for component combinations to use in it that will give excellent accuracy along with decent velocity, specifically with 168gr bullets. All the brass used to date has been WW 7mm-08, necked-up to 30, then partially necked back down to 7mm to leave a very short 'false shoulder' to prevent the cases from being driven into the chamber by the force of the firing pin blow. Perhaps there's reason to try some Lapua Palma brass - it would eliminate necking it up, and Lapua uniformity might well result in improved accuracy. Hadn't considered it simply because I like winding up with a more-or-less correct headstamp, and due to belief that small rifle primers weren't likely to give uniform velocity out of this large a case. I'd purchased a couple of 8lb jugs of Hodgdon H100V years ago while there was a crucial shortage of loading components; intention was to use it in 6x47, 6XC, & 6.5x55AI. However, accuracy with this powder was always disappointing - until I tried it in 168gr fireform loads for the 7-08 Imp. I get 2660fps with H100V & S168MKs out of a 26" Krieger 1-9tw bbl on a M700 chambered for the 7mm-08 Imp 30*, and accuracy has been 'acceptable' if not excellent. Flame temp of H100V on QuikLoad's list is one of the coolest burning powders currently available, so there's that to make it more attractive. But will a Rem 7-1/2 or CCI450 primer ignite it reliably?

 

[Laurie]

I bought 300 pieces Winchester brass for my 7mm-08 when I had the barrel put on a few years back. It was the last three bags that (British) gunshop which imports its Win cases had in stock and is very good quality / consistency indeed. (Unlike some Winchester 308 Win bought a bit later which is poor stuff! I suspect the 7-08 cases were the last of a batch imported years previously when Winchester was still respected for its quality.) It has a fair bit higher capacity than Lapua brass whether in factory gate 7mm-08 or necked-down 308 Palma forms.

The sole advantage I see out of reformed small primer brass (apart from letting me use up some of the large quantities of it with only a couple of firings in a minimum-SAAMI 308 chamber left over from my FTR days) is its strength. According to QuickLOAD, my 160gn TMK / N160 load is right on the 60,000 psi mark at the MVs I'm seeing. With an anneal every three or four loadings I expect it to last a long time, whereas the standard large primer stuff - even Lapua - will see case-head / primer pocket expansion after maybe five or six firings. There is no sign of pressures at all in use or in the loading process after getting on for 10 firings in the most used batch. I've kept the LP Winchester brass for a short-distance 150gn Lapua Scenar L / Lovex SO65 (Shooters World 'Long Rifle' in the US) load that really does produce tight groups at out to 300 yards. I also use the higher capacity Winchester brass for any play with 175/180gn bullets because the Lapua case simply doesn't hold enough single-based powder and if possible I try to avoid the hotter numbers such as Re17 and the Viht N500 series.

Necking the 308 Lapua case down is a straight run through a 7-08 die. The result is a bit short as the -08 case is some 30 thou' longer than 308. It thickens the neck by getting on for a thou' or maybe a little less so it is a fair bit thicker than Winchester - can be up to 0.016" with thicker batches of 308 parent brass. In a standard 7-08 chamber that should still be OK, but for a slightly tighter one based on Winchester dimensions might need a light neck turn. I annealed mine after sizing down, their all having undergone two firing cycles as 308s and gave them a light clean-up turn to 0.015".

But will a Rem 7-1/2 or CCI450 primer ignite it reliably?

That you'll only know for certain by trying. I suspect it will as I've seen hints that CFE needs really vigorous primers - the Russian Murom (Wolf or Tula in the US) 'SR223' SR primer was introduced to suit the 223 with some of the newer ball powder types that XTC shooters were switching to and which the existing SR magnum cap was struggling with. I don't know for certain, but immediately thought 'CFE' when I read this.

 

[Evan]

Here's my take:

I am known to, as an obsessive sort, go shooting even when it is cold. Real cold. 0 degrees Farenheit cold. I don't care to deal with hang fires or fail to fires when I'm dealing with the cold.

I also don't believe in running high pressure. Wears everything out faster and I firmly believe that the extra 100fps between a safe node and a hot one doesn't help enough ballistically to be worth the extra cost for any rifle or chambering. I've always had superior accuracy at the safe node.

I've got a Ruger Precision Rifle and the firing pin fit is loose. It craters and extrudes primers before max pressures with large primer brass. No reason to feed it small primer brass.

This combination of factors has lead me to continue to use large primer brass with my 6.5 creedmoor.

 

[Laurie]

I've got a Ruger Precision Rifle and the firing pin fit is loose. It craters and extrudes primers before max pressures with large primer brass. No reason to feed it small primer brass.

That alone makes it well worthwhile staying well away from SP cartridges. I found Norma 6.5mm Creedmoor (LP) very well made and they seemed pretty strong, but I didn't fire them often enough enough before moving onto other cartridges to show anything worthwhile on strength / life. ......... and they aren't cheap! Early Hornady unprimed brass I bought when the cartridge was in its infancy were very disappointing. Huge weight / capacity variations, soft case-heads giving a short life with not at all high pressure loads, various manufacturing flaws ....... and in the UK they're not cheap either!

I'm not talking about super or excessively 'hot' loads here. My 7-08 full-power loads should all be within the SAAMI 60,000 psi MAP standard for the cartridge; when I loaded 6.5 Creedmoor, they'd have been well under the SAAMI 62,000 psi MAP. (That's maximum average pressure, so Hornady designed and registered its cartridge as being capable of dealing with loads averaging that level, some individuals being a thousand or so either side.) In practice, early Hornady brass was nowhere near capable of dealing with those pressures and factory loads are reputed to run at 56-58,000 psi MAPs, right where the much older 260 Rem and other 308 Win based cartridges are.

We are where we are - not just in shooting, but all engineering / technically based activities - through vastly improved design and materials allowing less to do more but operating at much higher stress levels. We have 140 bhp 1 ltr 3-cylinder engines in family cars that run smoothly at 7,500 + rpm speeds, give three times the mpg figures, last twice or three times as many miles and need servicing at twice the intervals of 2.5 ltr straight sixes of my youth. Cartridges haven't come on anything like that amount over the same time period, but 7mm-08, 308 Win, 260 Rem etc match the performance of the larger 7X57mm Mauser, .30-06 Springfield, 6.5X55mm that used more powder and ran at lower pressures. 6.5X47mm Lapua was designed for and is registered with CIP at 4,350 bar / 63,091 psi MAP using a slightly different measurement system from SAAMI - it achieves it, works in all temperatures and its case life is almost legendary. SP primers are an integral part of the package to achieve that. Cartridges using them and the smaller (1.5mm) flash-hole are not a panacea as some suggest but they have their place in today's conditions and competition environment. In the Creedmoor, their introduction by Lapua, Pterson and others has attracted many more users to the design, and frankly Hornady nearly wrecked a brilliant concept and its early marketing efforts through shoddy brass.

It may be that if Ruger wishes its PR rifle to continue with its phenomenal sales success seen up to now it'll have to sort out its engineering and production standards on its bolt and firing pin fit. Two thirds plus of RPRs sold in the UK were initially chambered for 308 Win after it arrived here with a handful of 243s and less than a quarter share in 6.5mm Creedmoor. Only two or three years on, the 6 and 6.5mm Creedmoor models easily outsell 308s and some initial buyers of the latter now wish they'd opted for the smaller calibre cartridge. However, getting a bolt bushing job is an expensive business here (~ $400 US) on a rifle that in real terms costs at least double US prices. I for one think buyers shouldn't have to go out and modify a 21st century factory design and product at their own expense to handle ammunition in the form that many wish to use. The Remington 700 has some excuse for examples needing this work having been introduced in 1962; the Ruger a lot at less with its current age of under four years.

 

[Evan]

In the Creedmoor, their introduction by Lapua, Pterson and others has attracted many more users to the design, and frankly Hornady nearly wrecked a brilliant concept and its early marketing efforts through shoddy brass.

It may be that if Ruger wishes its PR rifle to continue with its phenomenal sales success seen up to now it'll have to sort out its engineering and production standards on its bolt and firing pin fit. Two thirds plus of RPRs sold in the UK were initially chambered for 308 Win after it arrived here with a handful of 243s and less than a quarter share in 6.5mm Creedmoor. Only two or three years on, the 6 and 6.5mm Creedmoor models easily outsell 308s and some initial buyers of the latter now wish they'd opted for the smaller calibre cartridge. However, getting a bolt bushing job is an expensive business here (~ $400 US) on a rifle that in real terms costs at least double US prices. I for one think buyers shouldn't have to go out and modify a 21st century factory design and product at their own expense to handle ammunition in the form that many wish to use. The Remington 700 has some excuse for examples needing this work having been introduced in 1962; the Ruger a lot at less with its current age of under four years.

I honestly think that Hornady was only focused on filling the supply stream with good ammo. This turned out to be a great strategy; the number of testimonials I've read that read "This is the first rifle I've been able to get consistent hits at long range with, I'm hooked!" is testament to the good decisions Hornady made. Reloaders are a small market, both in size and profit margins. They didn't need to cater to us. Hornady did a great job of bringing new people into the sport by opening their eyes. People who previously thought long range was anything beyond 100 yards are suddenly seeing a whole new world because their affordable 6.5 Creedmoor will hit that gong at 600yards darn near every time!

I wholeheartedly agree on the Ruger, and a lot of modern rifles (like Remingtons and Savages), are just not made terribly well, but they seem to be achieving great accuracy more often now. My RPR, which may be a bit of a unicorn, performs at 300 yards like this a lot:

That's phenomenal for a factory gun! I just have to "settle" for "only" running 147eldm at 2750fps instead of packing in the powder and cranking the pressure up to get to the often bragged about 2900+fps. I'm not sorting any of my components; I load them like they come out of the packaging. I'm pretty much done with this rifle though. I've seen the error of my ways: factory guns are just money I could have better spent towards a custom that would perform more consistently to my expectations. Bolt bushing jobs are more affordable here in the US and I still feel like it's wasted money on this platform.

 

[Laurie]

I honestly think that Hornady was only focused on filling the supply stream with good ammo. This turned out to be a great strategy; the number of testimonials I've read that read "This is the first rifle I've been able to get consistent hits at long range with, I'm hooked!" is testament to the good decisions Hornady made. Reloaders are a small market, both in size and profit margins. They didn't need to cater to us.

That's definitely true in its main market, the USA. Factory ammunition took a long time to get to Europe - no doubt due to Hornady's problems in satisfying US demand - and when it did finally arrive, it was unaffordable to many shooters. (That's the primary reason why RPRs and similar still sell in 308 here - availability of quite good and much lower priced factory ammo.) So our market for these rifles, and even more so those in 6.5X47L is heavily weighted to handloading users. It would make me weep (nearly) to look at the / 100 round 6.5 Creedmoor prices from some of the larger online US ammunition suppliers - don't know if it's still such a bargain today! To rub salt into the wound, Prime Ammo was listing 6.5 CM match grade ammunition at that time which was supplied under contract by RUAG using all-Norma components including the superb brass I mentioned in an earlier post and the 130gn Norma VLD. This was retailing online in the US at a lower price than RUAG Ammotech UK was charging for the brass alone here. Such is the power of large markets with bulk orders! (AFAIK, RUAG / Norma never loaded any for domestic European markets.)

 

[flatlander]

My early 7mm-08 WW brass was packaged in the older style blue/white plastic bags purchased ~2007, and is probably of the same quality as Laurie's. The only issue I've had fire forming it was with one case that split at the shoulder, upon checking the headstamp, I was somewhat more than slightly surprised to see it read "Hornady 6.5x55 ?!? Not being privy to any corporate agreements between Winchester-Western & Hornady, I have no flippin' clue as to how a piece of 6.5x55 brass, made with a Hornady headstamp came to be mixed in with WW 7mm-08 brass.

Honestly, I don't expect that the switch to Peterson SRP 7mm-08 brass alone would have that much of an effect on accuracy. I built my rifle on a bare M700 action that I'd trued (though it needed very little work to get the receiver face & lug seats true), with a PTG bolt ordered with the .062" firing pin hole, and mini 16 extractor. So it's set up to work with SRP brass if I should decide to try it.

Actually, I built the 7mm-08 with the idea that I'd also do a 6.5-08 Improved 30* bbl for it, since I've got a large quantity of WW243 brass fire formed for this cartridge, and had excellent accuracy out of the first bbl I did in this chambering. Switch-bbl rifles are not a new thing to me, as I have multiple barrels in 6 Dasher, 6.5x55AI, & 308 for my Nesika K Palma rifle.

 

[65 fan]

Guys which do you use small rifle primers or large rifle? Thanks in advance!

use the large primer and don't look back !!! Small primers have ES problems with temp changes.buy large primer brass and stick a BR2 in it!!