45acp or 9mm

[mongo chicago]

Way back then, what 9mm ammo was available to use, how’s it compare with today’s? Also what’s the purpose of the secondary weapon? Thanks.

For most people, drawing a second revolver was faster than reloading. The primary duty weapon was a 38 spl. revolver with the almost useless 158gr. lead h.p. So if you wanted to carry anything you felt was better, you carried a secondary weapon. Don't remember varieties of 9mm ammo available but it wasn't much. We are talking 1980.

 

[Tesoro]

This thread reminds me of when I’m at one of those gun shops, eavesdropping, listening to the conversations of the people who probably are there to socialize. There’s ALWAYS a couple, every time

I always wanted to own a local country gunshop after I retired. That was until I started frequenting them and realized I would probably run off half my customers in the first month!

 

[J.d. Popkes]

For most people, drawing a second revolver was faster than reloading. The primary duty weapon was a 38 spl. revolver with the almost useless 158gr. lead h.p. So if you wanted to carry anything you felt was better, you carried a secondary weapon. Don't remember varieties of 9mm ammo available but it wasn't much. We are talking 1980.

So, having a magazine, with higher capacity, with well designed ammo, along with shot placement, is what matters. To me. And apparently those in defense situations for real would agree. Not deer hunting. Not ball ammo. Current technology matters. Dirty Harry didn’t have the choice to carry a high capacity, ported 2011 with real hot 9mm hollow points. “Did I shoot 21 times, or only 20, punk”

 

[AccelR8]

One of the best bits of lore I heard in gun shop was "A 9mm is like stabbin' somebody with an ice pick but a 45 will knock a man off his feet!"

 

[bpd459]

We have had many, similar posts / exchanges in my almost 20 yrs on this Forum. I have carried a handgun my entire adult life, and 36 yrs in uniform. A 1911 .45 for 33 of those years, a 9mm for the remainder. I responded to shootings 1-2 times a week, more so in the early 90’s. I saw everything from .22 Short to the .50 AE, pistol wise, a couple 12ga, and few .223 and one 30/30 win gun shot injuries. I saw death on both ends of the spectrum. A temple shot with a Beretta with.22 shorts dropped the guy in his tracks. The dude shot in the ass with the Desert Eagle .50AE survived, leaving a blood trail that Helen Kellar could have followed.
The old “double tap” is just that. Shoot, move and evaluate. Body armor, drugs, bad guys that work out in prison, and mental illness negates this. Shoot the threat to the ground, or until they are no longer a threat. The face has become the new “center of mass”. Please discern the difference between a 115gr 9mm FMJ and a 230gr .45 round to the face. The goal of a self defense shooting is to stop the bad guy. To Stop them. Death and / or injury are a simple by-product of this. Shot placement is what matters.

 

[ELR LVR]

Good video, less than 13 minutes and some good information.

Interesting video
Summary, one pistol is not going to do much more "Terminal Damage" than any other
including 44 mag vs 9mm
---
What I do not see addressed is, many people are thinking if we have to shoot an attacker
they will be wearing a thin T-shirt
None of these gel tests with wound cavity depth and wound channel diameter
are considering, how much extra clothing may have to be punched through
or like a pig, some guys have more muscle, are thicker boned etc etc
once the bullet is inside tissue and expanding we can use a 380 acp
---
the fact of the matter is, having the energy of getting the bullet through everything else first
In my unit, it is drilled into us, bullets can shoot through walls
if an attacker ducks behind a doorjam, shoot through the freaking doorjam!!!
now going by the videos logic, if in a home defense situation, you find your attacker ducking behind a doorjam and you pulled your 380 acp, I'd rather have pulled my 10mm and know I have some extra power rather than not enough to hit my assailant. - and do vital damage
---
Not to mention, soft body armor is easy enough to get and any half intelligent criminal may be wearing it if they are armed and planning things out.
---
The best point made in the video was, use what you shoot most accurately
"If you shoot 45 more accurate than a 9mm, then use a 45"

 

[Tesoro]

We have had many, similar posts / exchanges in my almost 20 yrs on this Forum. I have carried a handgun my entire adult life, and 36 yrs in uniform. A 1911 .45 for 33 of those years, a 9mm for the remainder. I responded to shootings 1-2 times a week, more so in the early 90’s. I saw everything from .22 Short to the .50 AE, pistol wise, a couple 12ga, and few .223 and one 30/30 win gun shot injuries. I saw death on both ends of the spectrum. A temple shot with a Beretta with.22 shorts dropped the guy in his tracks. The dude shot in the ass with the Desert Eagle .50AE survived, leaving a blood trail that Helen Kellar could have followed.
The old “double tap” is just that. Shoot, move and evaluate. Body armor, drugs, bad guys that work out in prison, and mental illness negates this. Shoot the threat to the ground, or until they are no longer a threat. The face has become the new “center of mass”. Please discern the difference between a 115gr 9mm FMJ and a 230gr .45 round to the face. The goal of a self defense shooting is to stop the bad guy. To Stop them. Death and / or injury are a simple byproduct of this. Shot placement is what matters.

^^100%^^ I only did 11 yrs LE (overseas stuff) and my weirdest one was a reported shooting I responded to where I found a guy doa on the curb with no apparent wound. I recoverd one 25acp case close to the body. Coroner found a small entry wound by elbow and that little bullet zipped right up his arm, bounced off the scapula and lodged itself smack on the middle of his spine. He had to crack the spine in half to recover that little 30 some grain bullet!

Our troops found out in Mosul that 556 or 9mm wouldnt take down insurgents jacked to the hilt on meth without a CNS hit. They used to call it the wooly bully dance where the target would keep taking hit after hit and stay on his feet until a final headshot!

Anymore I want capacity over caliber. And hardly anyone mentions multiple assailants in an assault. Sometimes I get to thinking about the FN 5.7! Times have changed and the drugs are more potent.

 

[AccelR8]

I know one instructor who points out that in civilian self defense scenarios it's becoming more common that rather than facing one mugger in dark alley, it's a "gang" or a "crew" of several armed bad guys a victim may be confronted with, at a gas station, a stop light or even in said victim's driveway at home a.k.a. "jugging." Six rounds in a revolver or a sub-compact semi auto can be used up real fast.

I personally "saw," didn't actually see visually but was present when a man took a hit that nearly passed through his body (stopped inside the skin). He hollered "AH!" and after the immediate situation (the shooter) was handled, I asked, Are you hit? He said "I don't know" while opening his shirt, seeing a hole in the tee shirt, then his skin. He looked at me with a confused and questioning look on his face. He walked up a flight of stairs, asked for some water and then passed out. he sort of came back around and I got him into a car and to the hospital. Long story short, the Dr.s said, nothing really to do other than allow healing and prevent infection. He carried that bullet in his pocket for years until his untimely passing.
More to say but battery dying, I'll be back

 

[AccelR8]

Any way that guy passed on at age 24 due to Chagas disease and misdiagnosis. They were treating him for an ulcer and found out too late the pain he was experiencing was his heart.

To further what I was saying earlier, I personally know, although I haven't seen him in a few years, a guy who had a 9mm enter the top of his head, pass through the front of his skull and exit his jaw. It was traumatic beyond what I can explain here but ultimately he is back to a normal life.

So those are two examples of, thank god, one shot not doing the intended job. Oh by the way the first example was a 380 fmj round nose. Especially in the first case the guy was still very much in the fight after he got hit and didn't stop until several minutes later. In my opinion, more rounds=more better.

edit to add; I believe, if you listen to some voices, a significant terrorist event is a legitimate concern. Who knows in what shape or form but if it's like the Mumbai hotel attack or the October 7 Israel attack we may find ourselves in the mother-of-all self defense scenarios.

 

[AccelR8]

Can I do one more war story? You all have to forgive me, I'm in the middle of a couple of surgeries and cooped up and bored out of my gourd...
Not first hand but conveyed to me by an cop; responded to a shooting and found a guy, a rather large guy, sitting on the ground. Shot four times in the chest with what was later found to be a 45. Cop figured the guy was dying and asked "who shot you?' Guy replied "Don't worry about it I'll take care of it." He lived.

 

[ELR LVR]

That was a while back! Other than nostalgia, alot of the debate here seems to be also influenced by civilian concealed carry and being able to defend against another civilian in the open and not behind a door, wall, windshield or against someone wearing armor.

Cops in your time had the privilege and option of being able to open carry a monster hanging off a thick duty belt. Damm right if I had been in those boots I would have also carried a cut down redhawk or Mod 29 or at least a Mod 19!

Most of our Tier 1 military choose to use the Glock 9mm and there is a reason why. First of all they are expert shots under stress and secondly they have to assume they will run into multiple adversaries so they require a higher capacity sidearm that is compact and light weight. Oh and thirdly, the Glock is the most reliable handgun ever made.

For the rest of us a 9mm or 45acp will do the job equally if one can actually hit what one is aiming at! If an assailant is fully jacked up on meth then shoot your way back to your shotgun pronto!

but back then,
even civilians could open carry a .44 magnum without needing to qualify with it.
I remember I used to open carry mine in my vehicle to and from work
I rolled through a sobriety check once, 44 Super Blackhawk sitting there on the seat which was not a normal sight.
Cop didn't even bat an eye, just said, "go on through"
---
another time, same town, had said 44 strapped to my hip during deer season to and from work
rode motorcycle for a quick departure should I see a buck
rolled through a 45 doing 55
got pulled over near home
pulled over then held my hands up and said "before we go any further, Im carrying"
he asked for my pistol, set it on his hood, he did not even check it
after our interaction he told me to slow down and handed my pistol right back
and this was in California
yes times have changed
So cops of course would have had "at least" --- the same privilege as any civilian

 

[ELR LVR]

but if it's like the Mumbai hotel attack of the October 7 Israel attack we may find ourselves in the mother-of-all self defense scenarios.

That is another consideration, a serious one, that some of us prep and train for and some only take their CCW course to defend againt an ATM attacker
there is the matter of shooting past 15 yards, 50 yards, and even 100 yards
Charlie Kirk Shooting
Jason Aldean Concert shooting
other - shootings
which pistol if you had your choice, can you and do you feel comfortable engaging at 100 yds with?
A guy at a church opens up with an AR-15 and you do what?
try to sneak up to your trained distance of only 15 yds?
with your comfy 380 acp?
---
I like to carry more gun than I will need
But my recommendations don't mean much except for myself and my own skillset
It's something to consider though, what are your own capabilities and are you armed to the task to utilize them to their fullest
---
Always train, for the fight you may never get in

 

[AccelR8]

which pistol if you had your choice, can you and do you feel comfortable engaging at 100 yds with?

Defensive hand guns, like everything else in life, are a series of compromises. Many years ago my choice was a 6 shot .357 Mag. Then, an officer-sized 45 with a six round mag. Later went to a 10-round 45.
Right now, and has been for a while, a full size Beretta 92 with 18 rounds on board and spare 17 round mag. Critical Duty 135 grain +P. Because, I think for me this is the best set of compromises. Also what I'm most familiar and experienced with. I can carry it concealed just about as well as something smaller. I was convinced by a trainer that even if you don't think you'll need more ammo than what the magazine in the gun holds, a magazine is a failure point and having a spare one is a very easy step to take.

 

[ELR LVR]

Defensive hand guns, like everything else in life, are a series of compromises. Many years ago my choice was a 6 shot .357 Mag. Then, an officer-sized 45 with a six round mag. Later went to a 10-round 45.
Right now, and has been for a while, a full size Beretta 92 with 18 rounds on board and spare 17 round mag. Critical Duty 135 grain +P. Because, I think for me this is the best set of compromises. Also what I'm most familiar and experienced with. I can carry it concealed just about as well as something smaller. I was convinced by a trainer that even if you don't think you'll need more ammo than what the magazine in the gun holds, a magazine is a failure point and having a spare one is a very easy step to take.

True, we do seem to settle for a certain compromise, usually its weight moreso than length
which plastic guns have helped a bunch in that dept still allowing a longer barreled weapon for decent carry weight
I think many of us, myself included, would feel like a heel,
if we had the ability to stop of one of those 1 in a million scenarios "that will never happen to us"
and didn't do it.
If we keep planning for what will never happen, ...we are planning for failure
because we got complacent, and kept downsizing over the years.
The SMALLEST pistol I own, is an alum frame 4 inch 1911 LTC
and is the smallest I will ever own to prevent me compromising what I am capable of should the need arise
---
In the job place, OSHA told us "Complacency Kills""
I think that applies here too, or can apply here
I know I cannot hit squat at 100 with a 2 inch 380 acp
but my capability is to easily hit at 100 with a weapon capable of it
I dont think its wise to limit ourselves - especially when our capability is far more
not to mention, having th ability to defend at a distance, including long distance
people still shoot back from 100 yds - the complacent tend to forget that as much as 9mm kills too

 

[AccelR8]

I have a mantra; ALWAYS have a backup. Smallest gun? When I was a young cop in a single income home with three kids my backup was a Taurus 85, 5 shot 38. When I was able I bought an SP101. Still have them both. I now have a Bodyguard 2.0. No more ankle holsters, it is perfect in the right front pocket I guess as long as my right arm is still functional

I started out believing conventional wisdom, that all handguns are inaccurate. Then I was taught and learned I could hit reliably at 100 yards with a 38/357 revolver. Changed my perspective completely. Then saw the National Match shooters at Perry.

I'm gonna stop now because I'm drifting the thread. Good conversation. Thanks!

 

[charlie b]

---
What I do not see addressed is, many people are thinking if we have to shoot an attacker
they will be wearing a thin T-shirt
None of these gel tests with wound cavity depth and wound channel diameter
are considering, how much extra clothing may have to be punched through
or like a pig, some guys have more muscle, are thicker boned etc etc
once the bullet is inside tissue and expanding we can use a 380 acp
...

If you go to the Lucky Gunner website you will see that he does test gelatin penetration after going through 2 (or more?) layers of denim. Even today some of the HP bullets fill with denim and fail to expand. IIRC he also commented on the differences is 'std' gel vs 'lab grade' gel. He did a TON of research on lots of different ammo in almost all the popular carry calibers.

Not to mention, soft body armor is easy enough to get and any half intelligent criminal may be wearing it if they are armed and planning things out.
---

This is also a point not many think about. Also why learning and training for a double tap (one chest, one head) is still a good idea. A chest shot, even with 'normal' kelvar, hurts enough to distract most folks, giving a pause to make the incapacitating shot to the CNS.

 

[Oso]

So, having a magazine, with higher capacity, with well designed ammo, along with shot placement, is what matters. To me. And apparently those in defense situations for real would agree. Not deer hunting. Not ball ammo. Current technology matters. Dirty Harry didn’t have the choice to carry a high capacity, ported 2011 with real hot 9mm hollow points. “Did I shoot 21 times, or only 20, punk”

This ^^^ Assume multiple assailants… home robbery or while filling up at gas station or while picking up takeout. Don’t forget random spontaneous road rage while stopped at a traffic light or driving down the freeway. These are every day realities of urban living. Challenges in rural communities may differ.

Live round chambered in weapon, smooth draw, and accurate shot placement(s)… if you get through this initial part of engagement then we can start sweating out about cartridge size vs. magazine capacity. Shoot what you have greatest confidence in using.

 

[DirtySteve]

It is amazing that folks can not accept the fact that 9mm with modern ammo is just as effective as a 45 ACP. I have shot Severn hogs with 9mm’s all dropped at the shot except one that was facing me and I missed a spinal shot bully a few inches. It then turns broadside and next shot dropped her where she stood.

WMD Bell used a 7X57 Mauser for most of his 300 elephants. But hearing people go one about using big calibers make me wonder how Bell managed to even survive using his mouse gun. Oh yeah that is right he put the bullet where it needed to be and the elephants dropped.

 

[Tesoro]

This is also a point not many think about. Also why learning and training for a double tap (one chest, one head) is still a good idea. A chest shot, even with 'normal' kelvar, hurts enough to distract most folks, giving a pause to make the incapacitating shot to the CNS.

It is 2 to the chest and one to the head!

 

[Dgd6mm]

It is 2 to the chest and one to the head!

That's the way we train.