45acp or 9mm

[Richard Jones]

Well this pretty much debunks 1/2 of this thread!

Yep. "Don't get sidetracked by the caliber." Great video, had seen it before, but worth another look. Thanks.

 

[Oso]

Reread what I said! This not from social media! My comment says you have one maybe 2 shots in a self defence situation--- that is you woth someone putting you IN IMMINENT DANGER! Anything else is not a self defence situation.

From a lisenced SD instructor, and national police files, most,,, not all, in a SD situation has IN MOST CASE's one or two shots to get control of the situation they are in, that legally gets them in control of the situation!

SD is not making a kill! If you allow the most inadiquit assailant 2 or or 3 shots, you are MOST LIKELY, a VISTOM!

These are from years of records, not about killings, attacs, or just deaths! It is what the results of responsable self defence situations have been recorded.

In my opinion, 90% of those discusing Self Defence. Are referring to killing, which is talking about situations that are not life or death SD, and that % goes up when the subject is 18 rounds to save your life in a SD situation.

But one shot was never an absolute in my comment, it was stated you have one maybee two shots to be IN CONTROL, and it stated after that YOU ARE PROBABLY, a victim, no one can cay you absolutely are, but facts are, it doesnt have to kill them, just carry enough punch, even with a marginal shot, to take control of the asailant, which can be no more than slow them down to allow the person being attacked the ability to make a more reliable second or third shot.

But make no mistake, by the time you've made 6 to 8 shots, you probably had other options to remove yourself from the situation. Once you have any option to escape the situation and make the decision to engage instead of flee, your no longer talking SD in cort of law in most states! I want a cartridge I can control, that will do the most damage on even a marginal hit, the first shot I am allowed to get off in a unpredictable surprise situation.

That is what counts the most, and mine will be a 45acp 230 grain proven round to do damage. If I could control my 454, or even a 44 mag, I would use it, but follow up shots are not as reliable, and the speed of any handgun round, the largest caliber I can control, is what offers the most ability to accomplish what was being talked about,, Self Defence.

And no change in the gun other than shaving the combat slide release and the side safety, everything else is stock DW Valor VBob, a true 1911 Combat Commander sized pitol, with a hard hat treatment cause I don't care for stainless steel finishes. But quite proven modern ammunition, but even ball ammo would be more to my liking than any other ammo in smaller calibers.

I appreciate your fervor and personal experience. I am a huge fan of .45 and .44 cal handguns. I’m uncertain as to why you have decide to have a pissing match??? It’s been a while since someone popped his top and went full-out “I’ve seen & done everything” tirade on this forum. Lucky me…

If you take a moment to revisit the OP then you will note that he specifically asking about 9mm and 45ACP in a 1911 platform. He doesn’t provide details about whether this is a range toy, self defense or all purpose gun. I am assuming any/all of the above. We don’t know the age and physical capability of OP. He may / may not be able to handle the snappy recoil of a 10mm or anything beyond the smooth steady recoil of a .45ACP.

Maybe you have a Crystal Ball that you’re using to read OP mind. Where and how does .357 mag, 44 mag, .50 cal come to play in answering OP question? As we all know… Dirty Harry taught every schoolboy that the .44 mag trumps anything smaller than it. There is a trade-off for shea stopping power and that is recoil, which depending upon shooter’s strength and skill may adversely impact accuracy & speed of follow-up shots.

How about we call this done. I am guilty of writing full sentences and routinely meandering off topic. Maybe we let John Browning settle this. In the 1890’s he designed the venerable 1911 chambered in 45ACP and upon its acceptance by the US Military in 1910/1911 it was renamed “1911”. In the late 1920’s Mr Browning designed the HiPower and chambered it in 9mm. I guess it’s a draw…

 

[Oso]

Lots of videos. Synopsis is 9mm and 45ACP are comparable for self defense.

 

[wildcatter]

Well this pretty much debunks 1/2 of this thread!

Most videos and pictures do, records and experience are facts, but like science, not much talked about hear.

 

[wildcatter]

I appreciate your fervor and personal experience. I am a huge fan of .45 and .44 cal handguns. I’m uncertain as to why you have decide to have a pissing match??? It’s been a while since someone popped his top and went full-out “I’ve seen & done everything” tirade on this forum. Lucky me…

If you take a moment to revisit the OP then you will note that he specifically asking about 9mm and 45ACP in a 1911 platform. He doesn’t provide details about whether this is a range toy, self defense or all purpose gun. I am assuming any/all of the above. We don’t know the age and physical capability of OP. He may / may not be able to handle the snappy recoil of a 10mm or anything beyond the smooth steady recoil of a .45ACP.

Maybe you have a Crystal Ball that you’re using to read OP mind. Where and how does .357 mag, 44 mag, .50 cal come to play in answering OP question? As we all know… Dirty Harry taught every schoolboy that the .44 mag trumps anything smaller than it. There is a trade-off for shea stopping power and that is recoil, which depending upon shooter’s strength and skill may adversely impact accuracy & speed of follow-up shots.

How about we call this done. I am guilty of writing full sentences and routinely meandering off topic. Maybe we let John Browning settle this. In the 1890’s he designed the venerable 1911 chambered in 45ACP and upon its acceptance by the US Military in 1910/1911 it was renamed “1911”. In the late 1920’s Mr Browning designed the HiPower and chambered it in 9mm. I guess it’s a draw…

I guess you dont read full post like you do writing full sentences, but your quoting a post that was not directed at the op, it was a response to another who took bits and pieces, as you did, to my original post to make his post relevant??? Once the entire post was read, I think that will make sense to you?

But I think you missed half of what I stated, as the recoil ability and needs for each were spoken of. But since you ask, yes, if target, its an indisputable fact the 45 and in ACP is hands down superior to the 9mm for absolute accuracy for out to 50 yard slow fire competition, bowling pins, even most for speed competition,,,, most I said not all between those two rounds. Sorry I missed that!

Again as I said before, those not capable of mastering the recoil may shoot a 9mm better, but don't think you will have the advantage against those who can master its increased recoil. I think you'll find for those looking for that degree of accuracy you won't find them chasing anything as meaningless as speed either! But I have already made my opinion on that clear for either purpose!

 

[dellet]

No matter what, there will always be people who prefer one large instead of two medium pizzas.

 

[mongo chicago]

A well placed modern 9mm or 45 will work the same.

EHHH - not really. Yes - the rounds need to go to the right spot, and generally both perform the task at hand. But being a law enforcement range officer we got all the reports of shootings within our department and many reports from others. There were many shootings with 9s,38s and 357s that were all "good multiple hits" and the bad guy didn't readily succumb to being shot. EVENTUALLY he did, but not quick enough to immediately incapacitate him. The 44s and 45s were more effective for immediate results in ending the threat. (Sorry to the 40 cal. fans, I don't recall any reports of instances with that round). Combining that with my personal experience, I can definitely say bigger bullets have a better effect/result. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to get shot with anything, but when it comes to defending my life, I want the most that I can handle - within reason.

 

[Tesoro]

EHHH - not really. Yes - the rounds need to go to the right spot, and generally both perform the task at hand. But being a law enforcement range officer we got all the reports of shootings within our department and many reports from others. There were many shootings with 9s,38s and 357s that were all "good multiple hits" and the bad guy didn't readily succumb to being shot. EVENTUALLY he did, but not quick enough to immediately incapacitate him. The 44s and 45s were more effective for immediate results in ending the threat. (Sorry to the 40 cal. fans, I don't recall any reports of instances with that round). Combining that with my personal experience, I can definitely say bigger bullets have a better effect/result. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to get shot with anything, but when it comes to defending my life, I want the most that I can handle - within reason.

What 44's do your cops use on duty?

 

[Medic505]

After reading 7 pages of this wide-ranging discussion, I'm going to chime in. In the 32 years I ran on an ambulance, I transported 2 GSW's. Both were male. Both were the result of domestic disputes. Both were shot with .22LR. Both were DOA. I suspect the lesson in this is don't buy your domestic partner a .22 pistol and piss her off. It doesn't always take an elephant gun to kill an elephant.

 

[mongo chicago]

What 44's do your cops use on duty?

Secondary weapons were optional and wide open as a choice (back then). I personally carried a Ruger Redhawk that I had cut down to a 4" barrel with Remington 240 grain lead midrange magnum loads, (no longer made). I know an officer who carrie a single action in 45 Colt as a secondary weapon and worked with another who carried a S&W Mod. 29. Back then if your secondary gun was a revolver you didn't even have to qualify with it. Qualification with the primary revolver was good enough to carry any revolver. How times have changed.

 

[Tesoro]

Secondary weapons were optional and wide open as a choice (back then). I personally carried a Ruger Redhawk that I had cut down to a 4" barrel with Remington 240 grain lead midrange magnum loads, (no longer made). I know an officer who carrie a single action in 45 Colt as a secondary weapon and worked with another who carried a S&W Mod. 29. Back then if your secondary gun was a revolver you didn't even have to qualify with it. Qualification with the primary revolver was good enough to carry any revolver. How times have changed.

That was a while back! Other than nostalgia, alot of the debate here seems to be also influenced by civilian concealed carry and being able to defend against another civilian in the open and not behind a door, wall, windshield or against someone wearing armor.

Cops in your time had the privilege and option of being able to open carry a monster hanging off a thick duty belt. Damm right if I had been in those boots I would have also carried a cut down redhawk or Mod 29 or at least a Mod 19!

Most of our Tier 1 military choose to use the Glock 9mm and there is a reason why. First of all they are expert shots under stress and secondly they have to assume they will run into multiple adversaries so they require a higher capacity sidearm that is compact and light weight. Oh and thirdly, the Glock is the most reliable handgun ever made.

For the rest of us a 9mm or 45acp will do the job equally if one can actually hit what one is aiming at! If an assailant is fully jacked up on meth then shoot your way back to your shotgun pronto!

 

[J.d. Popkes]

Way back then, what 9mm ammo was available to use, how’s it compare with today’s? Also what’s the purpose of the secondary weapon? Thanks.

 

[Steve Donlon]

After reading 7 pages of this wide-ranging discussion, I'm going to chime in. In the 32 years I ran on an ambulance, I transported 2 GSW's. Both were male. Both were the result of domestic disputes. Both were shot with .22LR. Both were DOA. I suspect the lesson in this is don't buy your domestic partner a .22 pistol and piss her off. It doesn't always take an elephant gun to kill an elephant.

I think I read some place years ago that the 22LR has killed more civilians than any other cartridge. If all I had was my Ruger BearCat 22 LR six shooter I would be glad I had it. As long as you can shoot straight or be very close.

 

[Tesoro]

I think I read some place years ago that the 22LR has killed more civilians than any other cartridge. If all I had was my Ruger BearCat 22 LR six shooter I would be glad I had it. As long as you can shoot straight or be very close.

I had a good friend (rip) was was un-uniformed SF in Laos in the mid 60's. His job was to train Hmongs and he shot alot of charlie during night ambushes on their own patrol trails. He used a silenced high standard 22 from very short range and always shot them in the eyeball. Said the hydrostatic shock dropped them in their tracks. Not a sound.

 

[Tesoro]

Way back then, what 9mm ammo was available to use, how’s it compare with today’s? Also what’s the purpose of the secondary weapon? Thanks.

My guess is the first 9mm avail was FMJ Nato +p, which is hot. In my day I have stood over a bunch of men shot with FMJ and they all had one thing in common: they were dead.

 

[Knotwild]

My guess is the first 9mm avail was FMJ Nato +p, which is hot. In my day I have stood over a bunch of men shot with FMJ and they all had one thing in common: they were dead.

They were dead by a 9mm FMJ?

 

[Tesoro]

They were dead by a 9mm FMJ?

Yes they kill you believe it or not

 

[jcm800]

I guess we can all dump our 454, 45lc, 44 mags for a 9mm for deer hunting cause there's not much difference...lol
At the end of the day big holes leak more than smaller holes. 9, 40, 45 HST

 

[J.d. Popkes]

This thread reminds me of when I’m at one of those gun shops, eavesdropping, listening to the conversations of the people who probably are there to socialize. There’s ALWAYS a couple, every time

 

[Medic505]

Yes they kill you believe it or not

That's just funny.....