joshb
Gold $$ Contributor
Yup! Using his thoughts, a 10mm or 44 Magnum would be better.
45acp or 9mm
- Thread starter bobcat93
- Start date
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
Not to disagree much but, as far as the forensic data relating to only having one shot
there are many eye opening, humbling scenarios where you only have a max time
of 2 seconds to
react (thats if you are on your game with 0.20 second reaction time to an outside stimulus
draw
aim
fire
hit
or as some have taught it as the OODA Loop
Observe, Orient, Decide, Act
Allowing the person observing and reacting a strategic ability to unfolding events more rapidly and/or more effectively than an opponent,
---
In the meantime an attacker can close 12 feet of distance within 2 seconds and render the first shot useless unless you make it count within 2 seconds or less
many people are not taught this and think there is no way someone could be on them that quickly
tha, they could get their gun out soon enough etc.
Hardly ever.
ONLY if you are ready and expecting it right now during an exercise , maybe, but its still usually more of a tie than the defender gets his weapon out on time and on target before being subdued and attacked and weapon disabled or taken away.
even overwight people can quickly close this distance having stronger legs than normal
kind of like a bear, they can and will surprise you with the element of surprise.
---
One drill we learned which gains you an advaatge over someone doing just that, closing the distance such as at an ATM, is to instantly fall onto your back while drawing and orienting and acting
because it throws the opponent off guard and disorients and confuses them enough to where it can gain you another prescious few seconds
such as if you do miss that first shot, to provide a follow up on target.
Meanwhile they are thinking "why is this guy falling down? is he having a seizure, a heart attack, how do I attack someone lying on the ground now? etc."
it's an unconventional technique which was developed strictly because there are so many documented 2 seconds or less scenarios
-
then there are guys like me who have trained for 2 seconds or less all my life simply for carry out in the woods against bear or other creatures which can be on you so quickly
You had better train for and hit on point with 1st round hits within 2 seconds or less and I mean like Golf balls at 20 yds because if you allow them to get closer than that you are likely a gonner
with the rest of any flailing follow up shots merely likely to only piss them off
"Like the Revenent"
people... are not the only reason some people carry
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What's up with the Prodigy? There are some that say they're the same, just rebranded. Thanks.
The ones I’ve handled all need work, not only to feel right, but to run. One came out of the gun case at the local store, after messing around with it the owner of the store said he’s sending it back to Springfield.
Everyone puts the EGW kit in it and polishes it and smoothes it out and it is alright but then you might as well get a better one to start with in my opinion. There’s just better ones for the money these days. In my humblest of opinions.
No disagreement here. I can do that work, so I tend to overlook the differences, and there are differences, as you say. A closet tinkerer I be..........
Steve Donlon
Gold $$ Contributor
I agree, I went out and shot my 45c and the first thing that I noticed before I even pulled the trigger was how well it pointed. When they made these pistols, they got it right.
Advancements in bullet design and +P loading means that 9mm is punching at or above traditional 45ACP ball ammo. A 1911 in 9mm is easy to shoot with the advantage of additional 2-3 rounds in single stack magazine compared to 45ACP, and even more in double stack magazine
How many people have practiced and participate/trained in something like IDPA or USPSA to build fundamental skills for quickly drawing from holster, shooting on the move, reloading on the move, and clearing jams and engaging multiple targets all under duress. Even by seasoned participants magazines still get fumbled, dropped, and not fully seated. If you’re carrying your extra magazine in your pocket that is another potential issue (delay &/or distraction) fighting to fish it out.
A double stack / high capacity magazine saves you from having to do a magazine change during a critical moment. I shoot a lot of single stack at the range. However, my carry is a double stack.
How many people have practiced and participate/trained in something like IDPA or USPSA to build fundamental skills for quickly drawing from holster, shooting on the move, reloading on the move, and clearing jams and engaging multiple targets all under duress. Even by seasoned participants magazines still get fumbled, dropped, and not fully seated. If you’re carrying your extra magazine in your pocket that is another potential issue (delay &/or distraction) fighting to fish it out.
A double stack / high capacity magazine saves you from having to do a magazine change during a critical moment. I shoot a lot of single stack at the range. However, my carry is a double stack.
1911/2011 platform is fun to tinker with for sure. Very few parts that don’t require fitting, that really shocked me. But that trigger, mmmmhmmm!!!
But after over a hundred posts on this thread, I’m still kinda unsure about what the OP is wanting it for. Everyone has made their case, but what’s his goal?
Ranger188
Silver $$ Contributor
Theirs a lot of talk here that you need a 9mm for the extra rounds or 45 cause of the bigger hole.
Let's get real. How many here have been in a gun fight? Not in a war situation.
If you need more than a couple shots, you need to improve your shooting, or don't carry.
If you're spraying and praying, you are liable for all those extra rounds missing your target.
And the perp will suffer the same if it was a 9mm or 45 hitting non vital areas.
I'd rather have a couple or one well placed round.
A well placed modern 9mm or 45 will work the same.
Let's get real. How many here have been in a gun fight? Not in a war situation.
If you need more than a couple shots, you need to improve your shooting, or don't carry.
If you're spraying and praying, you are liable for all those extra rounds missing your target.
And the perp will suffer the same if it was a 9mm or 45 hitting non vital areas.
I'd rather have a couple or one well placed round.
A well placed modern 9mm or 45 will work the same.
ELR LVR
Silver $$ Contributor
Do you mean the Grip Angle?
Such as - the 1911 was designed to have the most natural grip angle due to how someone will naturally point their finger
---
When you extend your arm, and your gun is already pointed on target without looking through the sights
---they got it right
---
FWIW - Glock def got this angle wrong, I have to retrain my arm and wrist angle every time I shoot a glock
---
I like Sig's but will say about HK's, at the range once... a guy and myself were shooting
He had an HK Semi Pistol, me with my Sig 226, we we swapped for a minute
and he let me shoot his HK 45 acp
I was highly impressed with it's accuracy
Not better than my Sig, but he was using factory ammo, factory gun etc
and mine was tailored Hand loads, with some gun enhancements
His HK was not behind me one but
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wildcatter
Silver $$ Contributor
Reread what I said! This not from social media! My comment says you have one maybe 2 shots in a self defence situation--- that is you woth someone putting you IN IMMINENT DANGER! Anything else is not a self defence situation.
From a lisenced SD instructor, and national police files, most,,, not all, in a SD situation has IN MOST CASE's one or two shots to get control of the situation they are in, that legally gets them in control of the situation!
SD is not making a kill! If you allow the most inadiquit assailant 2 or or 3 shots, you are MOST LIKELY, a VISTOM!
These are from years of records, not about killings, attacs, or just deaths! It is what the results of responsable self defence situations have been recorded.
In my opinion, 90% of those discusing Self Defence. Are referring to killing, which is talking about situations that are not life or death SD, and that % goes up when the subject is 18 rounds to save your life in a SD situation.
But one shot was never an absolute in my comment, it was stated you have one maybee two shots to be IN CONTROL, and it stated after that YOU ARE PROBABLY, a victim, no one can cay you absolutely are, but facts are, it doesnt have to kill them, just carry enough punch, even with a marginal shot, to take control of the asailant, which can be no more than slow them down to allow the person being attacked the ability to make a more reliable second or third shot.
But make no mistake, by the time you've made 6 to 8 shots, you probably had other options to remove yourself from the situation. Once you have any option to escape the situation and make the decision to engage instead of flee, your no longer talking SD in cort of law in most states! I want a cartridge I can control, that will do the most damage on even a marginal hit, the first shot I am allowed to get off in a unpredictable surprise situation.
That is what counts the most, and mine will be a 45acp 230 grain proven round to do damage. If I could control my 454, or even a 44 mag, I would use it, but follow up shots are not as reliable, and the speed of any handgun round, the largest caliber I can control, is what offers the most ability to accomplish what was being talked about,, Self Defence.
And no change in the gun other than shaving the combat slide release and the side safety, everything else is stock DW Valor VBob, a true 1911 Combat Commander sized pitol, with a hard hat treatment cause I don't care for stainless steel finishes. But quite proven modern ammunition, but even ball ammo would be more to my liking than any other ammo in smaller calibers.
wildcatter
Silver $$ Contributor
A lot would change if I was going to war, but the 45 acp would still be my choice, with extra mags! But the fuds seem to confuse going to war, or being on the attack, from the True Meaning and needs of SELF DEFENCE.
wildcatter
Silver $$ Contributor
Lotta fake ideas come on paper, or social media, good example here! Power is so misinterpreted it's sickening! Caliber rules, If your capable of handeling it!
Trust me more deer and game fallen to factory loaded 45 Colts than 357's! That sir is a fact. I have been handgun hunting big game for over half a century. Yes killing is killing, and trust me, a 45 Colt in my Ruger Blackhawk decades ago proved how much better it was with a 1250 fps 340 grain bullet, over the best load I could get from my 44 mag with a 320 grain bullets at about the same speed, but the 44 had to be loaded a lot hotter just do that.
No not relevant for SD, first thing that Blackhawk is not what you want to shoot followup shots out of for thin skinned humans! Apples to Apples, what makes the smaller 45 acp my choice is, I can easily keep all 8 shots inside a notebook paper at 20 yards, a fer piece for true SD! I also have plenty of energy for the situation! I also can dump more of that energy faster when it hits my target, usually all of it without passing thru and not transfering it all on the subject! I also will from the very start, open a larger wound channel for more leakage!
If I used a 10mm, which would in my situation for human SD be better with a 40SW, for te reason I stated, as the 10mm more times than not will not dump all its energy as it most likey will exit at inside 20 yards, again, a long shot in a SD situation! But decades ago the 9mm proved to me little more than a glorified rapid fire 38+P. just to many ground hogs couldn't even be stopped before they made it to their holes. That chit don't happen with a larger 45 cal hole in them, obviously still a pass thru. Not the same you say,,, well I'd agree, I ain't had to kill a human yet, my bet is, it will take even more than that ground hog.
No a 44 mag few can empty as quick, plus its either a huge semi auto that needs an axle to carry, or a revolver! That is another mater I would never deal with, and in my vest on the Harley I carry an LCR, but no way would I stick it my waistband, it is the most uncomfortable gun I own to carry in anything but a pocket. The round cylinder creates a sharp pressure point, where as the 1911, is a flat, spread out over a much larger area.
Over the past 70 years I've probably carried about everything and in about every manner you can imagine. But knowing what kills, what is reliable, and what gives me the highest % chance of being successful if I ever would need it, that DW Valor is my educated answer for as good as it gets!
No an officers model, even custom will never be as reliable! about 20 years ago my Les Baer went down the road after spending nearly as much as it cost for the factory DW Valor, it shot right outa the box after cleaning, anything I could find to shoot in it from speer 200 grain hp "coffee cups" to every hp factory load I could get, roundball from several manufacturers to cast handloads with HP round ball, semi wadcutters even truncated cone, never a stovepipe are FTF, and tested over and over between as many as 1000 rounds between cleaning. That is probably why I stake my life on that cartridge and that gun! Nothing trumps reliability, especially if you know how and are personally capable of using t to its potential!
Just dont ever trade wasted worthless speed, for true stopping power, probably why 45 and 50 cal rules in Africa and Alaska for pro hunters, just quite a bit larger cartridges, but never think caliber doesn't matter, velocity is way over rated, and in my opinion a bi product!
Steve Donlon
Gold $$ Contributor
Yes, I mean that when I point the pistol to acquire my sight picture. I'm already lined up with my sights. No having to move the pistol around to get lined up. Like a 1911 but in a light weight package.
Well this pretty much debunks 1/2 of this thread!
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