358 WSM loads???
- Thread starter bobinpa
- Start date
Bob, I'm sure someone will run a QL for you if you can provide a bit more information. What is the approx case capacity in grains of water? Parent case? The 358 Norma is somewhere around 75-80gr. usable capacity. It looks like the 300WSM is about 7-10gr. less & 35 Whelen is c. 65 gr. according to Nosler #9. So... if your 35 is based on the 300WSM you'll be somewhere between Whelen & Norma.
Following is a guesstimate but is where l'd start with lack of better data...
If the above capacity is what you actually have, & since Whelen & Norma both really like 4064/H4895/RL15 range of powders, I would think a midrange Whelen load would be a safe place to start. If you find Whelen data a good start, PP2000MR or CFE223 could be your velocity powders. My Whelen sure cooks with it behind 200s & 225s. Speer #15 has data. I got better speed & smaller groups with PP2000. (It's sooty as hell until you get close to pressure.)
If you run into pressure before desired velocity with 250s, something a bit slower (H4350 or RL16 or 17 ???) may be your huckleberry if you can get enough in the case. Ball powder (Big Game or Hunter) might bulk better than extruded powders in limited capacity cases as well.
Following is a guesstimate but is where l'd start with lack of better data...
If the above capacity is what you actually have, & since Whelen & Norma both really like 4064/H4895/RL15 range of powders, I would think a midrange Whelen load would be a safe place to start. If you find Whelen data a good start, PP2000MR or CFE223 could be your velocity powders. My Whelen sure cooks with it behind 200s & 225s. Speer #15 has data. I got better speed & smaller groups with PP2000. (It's sooty as hell until you get close to pressure.)
If you run into pressure before desired velocity with 250s, something a bit slower (H4350 or RL16 or 17 ???) may be your huckleberry if you can get enough in the case. Ball powder (Big Game or Hunter) might bulk better than extruded powders in limited capacity cases as well.
bobinpa
Gold $$ Contributor
Yep, that would definitely help.
bobinpa
Gold $$ Contributor
The gun is a Winchester model 70 stainless classic action with a 24" stainless 1-12 twist Lilja. Modified Winchester contour to fit in a factory featherweight stock.
I've got some 200 Gr Hornady Interlocks and I found some 225 Gr Nosler Ballistic Tips too. I use H4350 in my 300 WSM so (foolishly) I thought I would try that. I've since been told that H4895 is good, which I don't have. I have RL15, RL 22, H4350 N165 IMR 4064. I don't know if I want fast or slow...
I've got some 200 Gr Hornady Interlocks and I found some 225 Gr Nosler Ballistic Tips too. I use H4350 in my 300 WSM so (foolishly) I thought I would try that. I've since been told that H4895 is good, which I don't have. I have RL15, RL 22, H4350 N165 IMR 4064. I don't know if I want fast or slow...
Last edited:
rickiesrevenge
Silver $$ Contributor
I've mostly used 225 accubonds in mine. Varget, RL15, IMR4895 and H4895. IMR got the most speed by far. H4895 was the most accurate for me.
I’d love so see some pics of that rig
Kurz
Silver $$ Contributor
In an attempt to be more direct with a reply, here is the general direction that I ran this cartridge when the .300 WSM was released. We necked the .300 WSM case up and down just like every other builder did trying to be first with the results of all the other calibers on that case...
So...
The limit here is the Winchester magazine box. You will be constrained by the box length as opposed to using a DBM or Wyatt's. Working with that 2.8" to 2.825" length, adding the longer heavier bullets just eats up case capacity like they did with the venerable .350 Rem Mag. years ago although it's not as significant as others might suggest.
This is not a target rifle so pick the range at which you feel comfortable shooting at game and work from there. Be sure to include the danger factor in case you decide on something like maybe BEAR?
I tested some of the pointy bullets with fair success although this cartridge seemed to perform well with the slightly more blunt bullets like the 225 Nosler Partition and especially the 225 Woodleigh PP or the SN. Several Missouri deer fell to this combination over 2 seasons.
Powders which were successful with the above bullets included your Re-15 and IMR-3031 or VVN-540. You will have plenty of power for 300 - 500 yards and the most general shooting from close in to 250 yards if you hunt the wooded ranges. Normal performance fell into the 2,800 fps. slot for the above bullets and nearly 4,000 ft/lbs of energy.
Enjoy!
So...The limit here is the Winchester magazine box. You will be constrained by the box length as opposed to using a DBM or Wyatt's. Working with that 2.8" to 2.825" length, adding the longer heavier bullets just eats up case capacity like they did with the venerable .350 Rem Mag. years ago although it's not as significant as others might suggest.
This is not a target rifle so pick the range at which you feel comfortable shooting at game and work from there. Be sure to include the danger factor in case you decide on something like maybe BEAR?
I tested some of the pointy bullets with fair success although this cartridge seemed to perform well with the slightly more blunt bullets like the 225 Nosler Partition and especially the 225 Woodleigh PP or the SN. Several Missouri deer fell to this combination over 2 seasons.
Powders which were successful with the above bullets included your Re-15 and IMR-3031 or VVN-540. You will have plenty of power for 300 - 500 yards and the most general shooting from close in to 250 yards if you hunt the wooded ranges. Normal performance fell into the 2,800 fps. slot for the above bullets and nearly 4,000 ft/lbs of energy.
Enjoy!
bobinpa
Gold $$ Contributor
I apologize... your reply was helpful but I was hoping for someone to give me some starting points with loads.
bobinpa
Gold $$ Contributor
I'll post some pics as soon as I get my hands on it.
bobinpa
Gold $$ Contributor
Thanks. Was there a big difference in speed between the 2 different 4895s?
rickiesrevenge
Silver $$ Contributor
IMR was quite a bit faster in my gun than the hodgdon version. Just wasn't accurate.
Aaron
Aaron
bobinpa
Gold $$ Contributor
In an attempt to be more direct with a reply, here is the general direction that I ran this cartridge when the .300 WSM was released. We necked the .300 WSM case up and down just like every other builder did trying to be first with the results of all the other calibers on that case...
The limit here is the Winchester magazine box. You will be constrained by the box length as opposed to using a DBM or Wyatt's. Working with that 2.8" to 2.825" length, adding the longer heavier bullets just eats up case capacity like they did with the venerable .350 Rem Mag. years ago although it's not as significant as others might suggest.
This is not a target rifle so pick the range at which you feel comfortable shooting at game and work from there. Be sure to include the danger factor in case you decide on something like maybe BEAR?
I tested some of the pointy bullets with fair success although this cartridge seemed to perform well with the slightly more blunt bullets like the 225 Nosler Partition and especially the 225 Woodleigh PP or the SN. Several Missouri deer fell to this combination over 2 seasons.
Powders which were successful with the above bullets included your Re-15 and IMR-3031 or VVN-540. You will have plenty of power for 300 - 500 yards and the most general shooting from close in to 250 yards if you hunt the wooded ranges. Normal performance fell into the 2,800 fps. slot for the above bullets and nearly 4,000 ft/lbs of energy.
Enjoy!
Thanks for the info. I am hoping to use 225 gr Nosler Ballistic tips that I found but I won't know for sure until I try them. I'm going to use it primarily for deer unless I get a chance to go back to Canada or ?? for a moose etc.
bobinpa
Gold $$ Contributor
What I am really looking for is a couple of suggested starting loads. I'm not confident enough in myself to try and compare this cartridge to others and come up with a powder & charge that is safe.... It would be a HUGE help if some of you guys that have already done this were willing to tell me where to start with a powder. I am smart enough to start low and work up... I just don't want to start too high. Feel free to PM me if you don't want that info out in public.
Also, has anyone ever worked with RL 16 or 17 for this cartridge? I may be able to get my hands on some of that if it is worth a try.
Thanks to ALL for your help.
Also, has anyone ever worked with RL 16 or 17 for this cartridge? I may be able to get my hands on some of that if it is worth a try.
Thanks to ALL for your help.
Bob., Did you get an empty case water capacity yet? It will be less than 358 Norma & slightly more than 35 Whelen I'm sure. I got excellent velocity & accuracy with PP2000MR in both my Whelen & 358 Norma. It's a very forgiving & useful powder. I would start around 65gr going up a grain at a time until either no more fits in the case, you get the velocity you want, or you get slight ejector scrubbing & back off a grain. Then go from there. IF the case capacity is between the two other 35s, RL15 try 58gr to start... IMR4895 try 51gr to start... IMR4064 try 54gr to start. I believe RL16 & 17 will be too slow with 225s but might work with 250s or heavier.
Better yet, post asking for a Quickload with relevant info in one place rather than thruout a thread. Barrel length, H2O capacity (grains H2O weight) to top of neck, preferred bullets, powders you have access to, OAL, should get starting data from some kind soul.
I saved this QL with very limited powder options from somewhere on the web a while ago for 35 Sambar. It may be what you're after. Maybe RL17 will work with 108% load density if you want to compress that much.
Cartridge : .35/300 WSM (.35 Sambar)
Bullet : .358, 225, Nosler AccuBond 50712
Useable Case Capaci: 68.678 grain H2O = 4.459 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.860 inch = 72.64 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 63000 psi, or 434 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window. C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations. USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
Powder type Fill/Load Ratio Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-17 108.1 71.8 2964 100.0 63000 8774 1.088
Vihtavuori N550 109.6 70.9 2909 99.1 63000 8649 1.109
Winchester 760/H414 107.0 71.6 2908 97.1 63000 8728 1.102
Hodgdon H380 103.6 67.0 2852 98.8 63000 8165 1.123
Accurate 4350 110.0 69.6 2841 98.7 57782 8416 1.156 !
Accurate 4064 104.9 65.0 2840 100.0 63000 7467 1.147
Accurate 2520 97.2 64.9 2837 100.0 63000 7461 1.131 !
Norma URP 110.0 68.9 2831 98.5 57158 8396 1.149
Norma 204 110.0 71.9 2828 94.0 60666 8424 1.122
Ramshot Hunter 110.0 71.9 2828 96.8 56877 8591 1.148 !
Accurate 2495 98.8 61.2 2818 100.0 63000 7165 1.154 !
Accurate 2460 92.7 63.2 2799 100.0 63000 7270 1.140 !
Better yet, post asking for a Quickload with relevant info in one place rather than thruout a thread. Barrel length, H2O capacity (grains H2O weight) to top of neck, preferred bullets, powders you have access to, OAL, should get starting data from some kind soul.
I saved this QL with very limited powder options from somewhere on the web a while ago for 35 Sambar. It may be what you're after. Maybe RL17 will work with 108% load density if you want to compress that much.
Cartridge : .35/300 WSM (.35 Sambar)
Bullet : .358, 225, Nosler AccuBond 50712
Useable Case Capaci: 68.678 grain H2O = 4.459 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.860 inch = 72.64 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 63000 psi, or 434 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window. C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations. USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
Powder type Fill/Load Ratio Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-17 108.1 71.8 2964 100.0 63000 8774 1.088
Vihtavuori N550 109.6 70.9 2909 99.1 63000 8649 1.109
Winchester 760/H414 107.0 71.6 2908 97.1 63000 8728 1.102
Hodgdon H380 103.6 67.0 2852 98.8 63000 8165 1.123
Accurate 4350 110.0 69.6 2841 98.7 57782 8416 1.156 !
Accurate 4064 104.9 65.0 2840 100.0 63000 7467 1.147
Accurate 2520 97.2 64.9 2837 100.0 63000 7461 1.131 !
Norma URP 110.0 68.9 2831 98.5 57158 8396 1.149
Norma 204 110.0 71.9 2828 94.0 60666 8424 1.122
Ramshot Hunter 110.0 71.9 2828 96.8 56877 8591 1.148 !
Accurate 2495 98.8 61.2 2818 100.0 63000 7165 1.154 !
Accurate 2460 92.7 63.2 2799 100.0 63000 7270 1.140 !
Orr89rocz
Silver $$ Contributor
That data may have been from this thread
Would heavy bullet 325 wsm data work as a start point?
35 WSM/35 Sambar
With all the talk about the 325WSM I ran across this over on the Bullet forum. Looks like it would put the hurt on the 325WSM big time with the wider range of bullets available. I'm sure Homer Oz can enlighten us on this one since it was created down under.
forum.nosler.com
Would heavy bullet 325 wsm data work as a start point?
bobinpa
Gold $$ Contributor
I made some calls today and believe it or not, I now have Reloader 17 and H4895 to add to my list of powders to try. I'm also working on some IMR 4895, but I won't know until tomorrow.
What do you all think about 200 grain Hornady Interlocks. I've got plenty of them and they work great on deer or at least the 30 cals do. Would you try them?
What do you all think about 200 grain Hornady Interlocks. I've got plenty of them and they work great on deer or at least the 30 cals do. Would you try them?
FNSafari
Gold $$ Contributor
Bob, at moderate velocity I would. But if you are going to push them to the upper end of the velocity envelope they may be too fragile at real close range on light skin game. If so I would load them down to the mid 2500 range. JMO.
A good website to read, if you haven't already is ballisticstudies.com. Here is his specific page on the 358 Norma. He comments on the Hornaday Interlock bullet....
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.