30BR vrs 6PPC in wind

[gunsandgunsmithing]

IME, it's a coin toss, with any difference getting lost in the noise. This seems to be confirmed by various ballistics programs.

 

[dkhunt14]

That's why I specifically said SR IBS score. Let's face it, your not going to change anybody's mind in the IBS to use neutral targets. It ain't gonna happen, you know it, I know it and everybody who associated with the IBS knows it. I have no doubt that some 6MM cartridges are better at long distances. As long as they keep those targets that are in use now for IBS short range score, 95% of the time a guy with a 30 is going to win.

They will if it keeps dying. Matt

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

yes the 30 is accurate but the real reason is the diameter. A 100 yd score target the 10 ring is .500 plus .308 =.808, you get a 10. 308 plus .062 = .370 you get an X. Now when you hit 300 yds. the wind enters the picture and most of the time they can't shoot a 250. Run the numbers on a 105 6mm. bullet and a 112 to 118 30 cal and you will find that the plain old 6br with a 105 will come out on top with equal quality bullets and barrels. There argument is, it's about x's...... right at a 100 you take a sub .1 gun and shoot at a 1/2" 10 ring then it is about x's, but when the wind blows at longer distance it is a different story at 2-300 yds. the higher BC. 6 mm will hold it's own. Look at the groups they are shooting at 600 yds. and they can't go back to the sighter. ..... and don't have field full of flags....... jim

Jim, I certainly see your logic but show up at a score match with a .370 load/rifle and I can pretty much guarantee you'll finish dead last.

A few years back I chambered up a 10 twist 6BR to shoot 87 vld's and 95 gr BIBs. It shot well enough that I did win a 100 yard score match in a rare trigger pulling condition, that day...So it shot fine. The purpose was to gain a bc advantage, particularly in 200 and 300 yard matches in the caliber neutral UBR format.
It didn't pan out very well overall. The bottom line was and is, if you pull the trigger at the wrong time the bc simply doesn't help enough to overcome shooter error. Sure, it may help a bit when you get caught in a big switch, but only to the point of a line licker being good or out of the scoring ring. I don't think it had the benefit of a single dot though. At least not in what I'll call "normal" conditions.

 

[johara1]

I will say this a bullet that moves half as much in the wind has the advantage. The wind has more affect on the out come at longer range than anything. Maybe it is just how long range shooters load is what makes them shoot in .3 at 600 yds but are not capable shooting in an inch and a half at 300....... but they can shoot in an inch and a half at 1000....... i would guess that loading for longer ranges is a little more precise..... I found that out a long time ago....... jim

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

I will say this a bullet that moves half as much in the wind has the advantage.

If all else is equal. All else is not equal. It's harder to make a long bullet jacket with uniform wall thickness, and spinning a bullet faster increases dispersion because the CG is rarely exactly on the bullet's long axis. Heavier bullets produce more recoil in rifles of the same weight.

Shooting multiple score targets in one relay is also a different gun handling proposition than shooting on a single target. In SR score shooting I'll bet that a lot of shots are lost because of moving POA. I know that a lot of mine are.

The wind has more affect on the out come at longer range than anything. Maybe it is just how long range shooters load is what makes them shoot in .3 at 600 yds but are not capable shooting in an inch and a half at 300

Nobody doubts that winning LR (and SR) rifles can hold much better than 0.5MOA @ 300 yards if pointed correctly.

....... but they can shoot in an inch and a half at 1000

Not for aggregates.

....... i would guess that loading for longer ranges is a little more precise..... I found that out a long time ago....... jim

And SR shooters can hold more closely for wind, which puts a premium on absolute precision/accuracy and flag reading.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I will say this a bullet that moves half as much in the wind has the advantage. The wind has more affect on the out come at longer range than anything. Maybe it is just how long range shooters load is what makes them shoot in .3 at 600 yds but are not capable shooting in an inch and a half at 300....... but they can shoot in an inch and a half at 1000....... i would guess that loading for longer ranges is a little more precise..... I found that out a long time ago....... jim

I very much agree that bc is a bigger factor as distance increases. I also agree with Toby, in that in SR we have a more precise read on the wind and unless caught in a big switch, the difference of BC is minimized.
High bc bullets sound great in theory, but in SR, they don't fair well, typically. That said, I'm not sure that the 68gr fb at x velocity is necessarily the ultimate. There are a few trying 80 gr fb and bt's that are doing quite well. There may be a slight gain to be found somewhere in that range with the right case and speed. IDK.

 

[johara1]

Ok, 3" aggs at 1000.. so what would that be at 300???. How many short range guys weigh powder to the .01? How many measure and trim and point bullets? how many anneal? how many separate by seating pressure ? how many weigh primers? Loading for short range is very crude and they will jump in and say it isn't needed. How do they know if they don't try some of these things. jim

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Ok, 3" aggs at 1000.. so what would that be at 300???. How many short range guys weigh powder to the .01? How many measure and trim and point bullets? how many anneal? how many separate by seating pressure ? how many weigh primers? Loading for short range is very crude and they will jump in and say it isn't needed. How do they know if they don't try some of these things. jim

A 10fps ES creates 0.1" of vertical (0.033 MOA) for a 6PPC at 300 yards, but >3" of vertical (0.33 MOA) for a Dasher at 1000 yards.

For SR, keeping up with tune from match to match is more important that loading practices designed to minimize ES.

 

[JimPag]

They will if it keeps dying. Matt

Then you don't know anything about the IBS. You have a better chance of doing Pam Anderson than getting the IBS to change anything.

 

[johara1]

A 10fps ES creates 0.1" of vertical (0.033 MOA) for a 6PPC at 300 yards, but >3" of vertical (0.33 MOA) for a Dasher at 1000 yards.

For SR, keeping up with tune from match to match is more important that loading practices designed to minimize ES.

I see you have no clue what I'm talking about, Short range shooter hold more precisely for wind? if so how can you miss an 1.5" 10 ring at 300 yds? You have more flags out in one match than 1000 yd. shooters have in all the matches put together in a year. As far as bullets Spencer made some of the finest long range bullets made. I see this is a waste of time ....... jim

 

[Eddie Harren]

Then you don't know anything about the IBS. You have a better chance of doing Pam Anderson than getting the IBS to change anything.

With their past history of changing things being a prime example of, "If it aint broke, fix it until it is", behind them, the IBS has nearly accomplished killing a great sport. Overall attendance has been down for the last several years. The 6 power classes are nearly dead and will soon be completely gone.

 

[johara1]

Then you don't know anything about the IBS. You have a better chance of doing Pam Anderson than getting the IBS to change anything.

Jim, you are right there...... jim

 

[johara1]

With their past history of changing things being a prime example of, "If it aint broke, fix it until it is", behind them, the IBS has nearly accomplished killing a great sport. Overall attendance has been down for the last several years. The 6 power classes are nearly dead and will soon be completely gone.

Eddie, Now they are killing long range....... jim

 

[JimPag]

With their past history of changing things being a prime example of, "If it aint broke, fix it until it is", behind them, the IBS has nearly accomplished killing a great sport. Overall attendance has been down for the last several years. The 6 power classes are nearly dead and will soon be completely gone.

You hit it right on the head Eddie.

 

[Greyfox]

I see you have no clue what I'm talking about, Short range shooter hold more precisely for wind? if so how can you miss an 1.5" 10 ring at 300 yds? You have more flags out in one match than 1000 yd. shooters have in all the matches put together in a year. As far as bullets Spencer made some of the finest long range bullets made. I see this is a waste of time ....... jim

Jim,
I think I do understand what you are talking about. In fact, from time to time, some do attempt to use long range techniques for loading. Of course, to a certain extent they do work. The thing is, at short range the small amount of increase in accuracy gets lost in the noise. Also, most of the time, short range shooters don't miss at 300 yards. SR shooters are just like LR shooters, they miss switched and conditions. The difference is, with long range it's expected now and then since you don't have the same kind of wind flag setup. My speculation is if individual cameras ever gain acceptance in 1000 yard matches, it may become possible to see the previous immediately and adjust for the next just like short range. While more precise loading will gain some accuracy, IME, superior wind reading skills will win over accurate loads nearly all the time. Also, if we are talking about score shooting, a rifle that will agg in the low .3s has the capability (in theory) to win a UBR match. And UBR matches are more difficult than IBS matches, all things being equal, because of the smaller dot to bullet diameter ratio. We all want the most accurate load/tune, but in this case it really isn't worth the trouble.

Rick

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I don't recognize the "theory" that a .370 rifle can win at IBS score. For starters, the margin for error is .000" for 25 shots. That would of course shatter all records, even for 5 shots.

 

[WillyTP]

To the original post, the BC on the 30 cal is a little bit better than the 6 at those weights.

For the rest of this thread, the 2015 IBS 300 yard national was won by a 6 dasher. In fact, 3 of the top ten that year at that match ran a 6 dasher for the 300 agg. Their were others that also shot a 6 of some type, dasher, br, brdx and brx, but not a single ppc. Again you won't find this on the equipment list, but many IBS shooters are bringing a 6mm variant to the line in the 300 yard matches. I think it has the advantage in windy conditions, but I tend to lose the bullet holes when the mirage gets bad, so each person will believe differently on the subject based on personal experience.

 

[LHSmith]

To the original post, the BC on the 30 cal is a little bit better than the 6 at those weights.

For the rest of this thread, the 2015 IBS 300 yard national was won by a 6 dasher. In fact, 3 of the top ten that year at that match ran a 6 dasher for the 300 agg. Their were others that also shot a 6 of some type, dasher, br, brdx and brx, but not a single ppc. Again you won't find this on the equipment list, but many IBS shooters are bringing a 6mm variant to the line in the 300 yard matches. I think it has the advantage in windy conditions, but I tend to lose the bullet holes when the mirage gets bad, so each person will believe differently on the subject based on personal experience.

Are you referring to this match? :http://internationalbenchrest.com/results/score/2015/Ashe County/Nationals/AsheCountyNationals.php

 

[WillyTP]

Are you referring to this match? :http://internationalbenchrest.com/results/score/2015/Ashe County/Nationals/AsheCountyNationals.php

Yes

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Yes

I don't know which 3 of the top 10 it was but I can name most of the ones that it wasn't.
That said, a 244-3x won the 300 yd portion. That score tells us that conditions were pretty brutal. That's exactly when a higher bc and speed will be most advantageous. I don't remember any talk of the 3 dashers in the top 10. Tell me more.