308 FTR bullet of choice

[broncman]

Those of you shooting FTR, what is your bullet of choice from your actual trials and experiments? Any one bullet you keep coming back to etc?

I am having a bear getting my new barrel to be consitstent with 215 hybrids and tried some 185 juggernauts in it and loves them. The juggernauts have been very easy to tune. Curious as to some of the other Berger heavies ease of tunability.

Watching the other thread on 308 FTR bullets at Raton thread closely.

So what has been the most successful for you so far?

 

[XTR]

Ken, I've written my philosophy at least a half a dozen times and I may have told you at Oak Ridge.

There is no laser bullet in a 308, they all move outside of the 10-Ring on a 1MPH shift (unless you are at 6800 feet).

You are just starting in F-TR. Yes, the 215 is a SOB to get to work, and they are hard to find, and they are sensitive to position. (I yard saled all of mine months ago, then lucked into a load dinking with some leftovers now that I cant find any). If you throat for the 215s then the only bullets your rifle will be throated for are 215s and 230s. I used the 197 bullets I had left for my backup rifle at Raton. I shot the 185 in my primary, but found my load was too hot in the heat out there.

Bullets don't win, marksmen who can read wind do. The difference in a 215 and a 185 is only a point or so every match or two with equal shooters. Until you are shooting in the 190s on a regular basis shoot something else. I strongly suggest something cheaper and easier to load. My recommendations have been 175 SMKs or Hornady 178 HPBTs for practice and club matches at a cost that is 40% less than Bergers and get some 185s for when there is some hardware on the table. That's what I did last yr.

The 185 and the 175/178 are easy to tune, get some. No amount of time at the loading bench will teach you to read wind, a waterline 8 drops the same points as one at 2 o'clock. Find some bullets (I know easier said than done) get a load that shoots 0.5 MOA or better and get on the line shooting matches. Don't get lost in the technoballisticcoeficientvortex of loading perfect bullets. When you are flirting 190 scores at 1000 on a regular basis, then start thinking about the points that a bullet can get you, because until then the points it may have gotten you are insignificant to the points you lost to wind. Your vertical may not be your load. Rear bag technique and finding one you can use is way more important than choice of bipod, but you don't hear people talk about it because you can't buy technique. (Danny Biggs once told me it was one of the most important parts of shooting well in F-TR. I've found his advice to be correct)

I believe that Russell was shooting 155s in the worlds and finished 2nd by one point. That means 155s beat all but one of the best shooters in the world in some really nasty conditions. I scored for him, I watched him drop eight or nine when I was dropping closer to 20 shooting 215s. Run your JBM calcs, 215s look way better than 155s, but I finished about 80 places behind him. IT IS NOT THE BULLET.

Wade

 

[6BRinNZ]

Ken, I've written my philosophy at least a half a dozen times and I may have told you at Oak Ridge.

There is no laser bullet in a 308, they all move outside of the 10-Ring on a 1MPH shift (unless you are at 6800 feet).

You are just starting in F-TR. Yes, the 215 is a SOB to get to work, and they are hard to find, and they are sensitive to position. (I yard saled all of mine months ago, then lucked into a load dinking with some leftovers now that I cant find any). If you throat for the 215s then the only bullets your rifle will be throated for are 215s and 230s. I used the 197 bullets I had left for my backup rifle at Raton. I shot the 185 in my primary, but found my load was too hot in the heat out there.

Bullets don't win, marksmen who can read wind do. The difference in a 215 and a 185 is only a point or so every match or two with equal shooters. Until you are shooting in the 190s on a regular basis shoot something else. I strongly suggest something cheaper and easier to load. My recommendations have been 175 SMKs or Hornady 178 HPBTs for practice and club matches at a cost that is 40% less than Bergers and get some 185s for when there is some hardware on the table. That's what I did last yr.

The 185 and the 175/178 are easy to tune, get some. No amount of time at the loading bench will teach you to read wind, a waterline 8 drops the same points as one at 2 o'clock. Find some bullets (I know easier said than done) get a load that shoots 0.5 MOA or better and get on the line shooting matches. Don't get lost in the technoballisticcoeficientvortex of loading perfect bullets. When you are flirting 190 scores at 1000 on a regular basis, then start thinking about the points that a bullet can get you, because until then the points it may have gotten you are insignificant to the points you lost to wind. Your vertical may not be your load. Rear bag technique and finding one you can use is way more important than choice of bipod, but you don't hear people talk about it because you can't buy technique. (Danny Biggs once told me it was one of the most important parts of shooting well in F-TR. I've found his advice to be correct)

I believe that Russell was shooting 155s in the worlds and finished 2nd by one point. That means 155s beat all but one of the best shooters in the world in some really nasty conditions. I scored for him, I watched him drop eight or nine when I was dropping closer to 20 shooting 215s. Run your JBM calcs, 215s look way better than 155s, but I finished about 80 places behind him. IT IS NOT THE BULLET.

Wade

I always wonder how far in front he would have been if he had better ballistics. Presumably his wind calls would have been just as good.

I very much agree with your sentiment though.

 

[broncman]

Wade that is great advice as always! I had this barrel throated for the 215's. I was getting frustrated at the inconsistancy of the factory barrel. I could not consistently stay at or below 1/2 moa with it. I never had the confidence to know wether it was load or my experience. I got the new barrel in hopes of changing that. This has led to more frustrations and lots of practic though!

I have what I feel is a good technique, bag placement etc. I have a pretty consistent follow through on the shot and recoil is now straight back.

I started loading some 185's up recently to use as foulers and barrel warm up to simulate my 20 shot strings. That is when I realized how well they were shooting compared to the 215s. With no load development at all, the largest group I have shot with the 185's yet is 5/8" and that was throwing and not weighing!

Was so enamored by the ballistics chart of the 215's that I kept ignoring the shootability of the 185....

Finally got to my 300 yard range for some practice and that was the last straw. Back to the 185 and the last three groups have all been at or under 1/2 moa at 300 shooting with flags.

 

[Laurie]

I've tried the heavier Hybrids and largely given up on them. The 185gn Juggernaut can hold awesome 1K elevations if loaded to a sweet spot in the 2,750 to 2,850 fps MV range. For various reasons, many to do with terrible problems getting hold of any 185s in the UK over the last couple of years - our supply problems with this bullet pre-dated Sandy Hook - this bullet has lost favour here, and top F/TR shooters tend to alternate between the 210gn Berger VLD and the 155.5gn Berger BT, some using both in a single rifle with medium-long throating and 1-10" twist rifling pitch. The 155.5 is such a forgiving bullet, it usually still performs superbly in barrels that are in theory non-optimal in these regards.

Our experience in GB F-Class Association league rounds (seven per season, all long-range bar one meeting) shot over Bisley, Diggle, and Blair Atholl ranges in what are only very rarely calm and consistent condtions is that top shooters gain a marginal benefit using a 155.5 or 210 in some conditions, but it averages itself out over the season.

Russell Simmonds dabbled with 185-210s a while back and so far as I know has returned to the 155.5 with his rifles set up just for them. They offer lighter recoil and are less likely to suffer unexpected 'funnies' caused by a powder manufacturing lot change or unintended variation by the user in his or her handloading practices.

It's not just the 155.5 that does well. Steve Thornton was 13th at Raton shooting the Australian 155gn Dyer HBC, one of the cheapest match bullets available in the UK and with a BC similar to the 155.5 at half the price of the Berger over here.

 

[XTR]

I had this barrel throated for the 215's. ...

Ken, I'd either take that barrel back to the smith and have him take off 1/4 to 1/2 inch and rechamber it for the 185s or I'd get another barrel. If you don't have access to one I have a PT&G 2013 FTR reamer with a .168 throat. I loaned it to Thomas for his new Palma rifle but when it gets back it will have cut two chambers if you want to borrow it.

 

[Laurie]

I believe that Russell was shooting 155s in the worlds and finished 2nd by one point. That means 155s beat all but one of the best shooters in the world in some really nasty conditions. I scored for him, I watched him drop eight or nine when I was dropping closer to 20 shooting 215s. Run your JBM calcs, 215s look way better than 155s, but I finished about 80 places behind him. IT IS NOT THE BULLET.

Wade

Wade, if I've identified you correctly, we finished one point and one V apart, 410.22v to 409.21v in your favour. Interesting that you were using the 215 against my 155.5 to see us end up in nearly the same place. Given the Raton conditions variabilities, a tiny bit of good or bad luck in the relays we were assigned to probably had a larger effect on our scores than that bullet choice assuming both of our loads were grouping well and seeing small velocity spreads.

So far as Russell goes, I've had the privilege of knowing and shooting with and against him for around five years now. His wind reading skills are EXCEPTIONAL. I reckon he smells changes as well as seeing them. He also seems to have eyes in the sides and back of his head as he sees upcoming wind chages on the flags behind the firing line!

His rifle specification is still one of the simplest on the F/TR circuit - all good quality stuff and very well gunsmithed, but never the latest, or 'best', or most expensive - and he mostly uses the same bits in his rifle as he did when I first met him. The main changes he's made is to move from Leupold to Sightron scopes, the Series III 8-32X56 LRTD his optics of choice, and from Lapua standard LR brass to the SR 'Palma' case for Raton at any rate. (So far as I know, Palma brass was used by all 15 GB F/TR team members in the FCWC and those US FCN matches that we entered.)

The 155.5gn Berger seems to suit his wind-reading abilities, rifle and bi-pod specifications, and shooting style to a T, and I doubt that he'll move from that bullet unless something similar but substantially better turns up. So far, the 155gn Hybrid doesn't appear to offer any benefits over the 155.5 for most GB shooters who've tried it despite its higher BC value.

My personal opinion FWIW is that the 155.5 Berger is a once-in-a-generation 'super-design' in the same way as the original 155gn Sierra Palma MK (#2155) was a quarter century ago. The 185 Juggernaut may also fall into this category and the choice between the two probably comes down in the last resort to equipment / chamber to bullet compatability and individual shooting style / personal preference.

 

[broncman]

Wade,
my freebore is somewhere in the .200 neighborhood. I seated the 185's longer and added more powder. Oddly enough, the very first powder weight I tried while checking for pressure signs with the 185 load is the one that is shooting 1/2 moa!

Gonna leave it for now since it looks like it going to work great with the 185.

Ken

 

[XTR]

Laurie, I didn't plan to use the 215s. I experimented with them months ago and couldn't get them to work. I throated the rifle I used last yr for them to be seated with the bearing surface ending half way up the neck. The 185s fall out of the brass before they touch the lands. In the end I gave up on them.

My new barrel and rifle I have set up for the 185s. I had a load that I thought was thoroughly vetted and tested in the heat here in TN and loaded 400 rounds to take to Raton. The day before I left it occured to me that my backup rifle was throated for the 215s and that I'd never tested it with the 185s. I had a partial box of 215s and a little better than 100 that I needed to pull down. As a last ditch effort to have something for my backup I loaded one more 15 shot OCW test working down from the lowest load I'd tried in the past. The when I fired the second shot in the next to the lowest load I looked in the scope and thought "Well, I know I didn't miss a 2'x2' sheet of paper, so it had to go in the same hole." In the end it printed an lopsided hole with 3 shots. I picked that load and made up the rest of the bullets I had. I took 197 with me. So I was carrying a load that I had fired/tested for 3 shots. I tested them on the practice day for the FCN and they were good. I was still planning to use my 185s.

On day one of the nationals I had awful vertical problems. Day two I tried the 215s but they didn't strike me as that much better (pretty badly beaten by the winds). I shot the 185s again on the team day, and ended up blowing several primers in the last match. This is a load that I've fired over 600 rounds in matches and testing here so I was very surprised. I finished the FCN with the load and blew one more primer on the last match at 1000 so I decided to go with the 215s in the FCW.

At 800 the first day the 215s shot 9v and pretty much perfect water line. I knew the load was working there. I came off the line at 900 the first day with a good V count and as confident in the load.

It wasn't my intent to shoot the 215s, and I have 5 loaded bullets left. So I'm back to look for a load for my 185s. I'm running a 32" tube (cut down from 34) and I was running the 185s a bit faster with slower powder. I think my problem at Raton was that even before I got to the point of popping primers the heat caused my pressures/velocities to go up and drove me into the no mans land between nodes.

 

[Laurie]

Wade,

Our 'Open' team colleagues suffered a lot of heat related (?) Raton problems with their WSMs, and loads / powders that work in the UK simply didn't there.

Generally,our F/TR team avoided such problems and those you suffered. I'm convinced this was the combination of 155s, Hodgdon 'Xtreme' powders (VarGet, 8208 XBR, and the favourite choice H4895), coupled to - and I suspect crucially coupled to - Lapua small primer 'Palma' brass.

We fine-tuned our UK loads after arrival, and nearly all ended up using the exact same charge weights that we'd used in the UK even though they usually produced a bit more velocity in the very much higher temperatures. I decapped all my brass before flying out of the US - we had a big in-team debate as to whether this was necessary, the argument in favour being that airline security staff are unable to differentiate between live and fired primers - and all cases still had very tight primer pockets judging by the force required on the press handle.

 

[broncman]

Wade, if you dont mind me asking, what was the velocity if the 215's for the good load. You mentioned going down in your load range. I may be too high in my range as well. Starting to think the accuracy node may be lower than the range I was trying for.

For right now, I am going to polish my 185 load for next weekend. May come back to the 215's later,

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Raton load was 190 SMK @ 2,750

I'm going to play with 185, 200, 210, 215 hybrids. And see what I can find. 230's seem pretty crazy to me.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

As stated in the other (now dead) thread, I use the 180gr JLK LBT in a Lapua .308 case with Varget powder and Russian large primers.

My load was developed in Houston a few summers ago and was tested many times over the last few years. It pushes my bullets at 2850fps from my 32 inch barrels.

Since the temperatures were not any higher in Raton that what I developed in, there were no ammo issues. I also saw little to no elevation issues during the FCNC and finished with a 1244-31X (95.7%) and that includes a 199-7X on the Thursday morning match. During the team matches, I shot a pair of 191s and lost only a few points in the 9-ring above the 10; the other points lost were all to wind.

I shot a 425-24V in the FCWC.

I never felt I was let down by my bullet of choice, I think it's a great bullet.

 

[Laurie]

I never felt I was let down by my bullet of choice, I think it's a great bullet.

I agree it's an excellent design. Its bearing surface is maybe shorter than the Juggernaut's, and that might make it a bit more finicky as to barrel dimensions.

We've only had JLKs on an occasional basis in the UK for a long time. We got a bunch in last year and I bought a variety of .30-cal models. I'll likely do a bit more playing with the 180 LBT now that the FCWC is over. Varget though? NOT A CHANCE IN THE UK at present and seemingly for some time to come yet!

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

What I like about the JLKs is that I do not have to trim or point the meplats. I just load them directly from the bucket. They look like perfect little jewels.

 

[6BRinNZ]

So far as Russell goes, I've had the privilege of knowing and shooting with and against him for around five years now. His wind reading skills are EXCEPTIONAL. I reckon he smells changes as well as seeing them. He also seems to have eyes in the sides and back of his head as he sees upcoming wind chages on the flags behind the firing line!

His rifle specification is still one of the simplest on the F/TR circuit - all good quality stuff and very well gunsmithed, but never the latest, or 'best', or most expensive - and he mostly uses the same bits in his rifle as he did when I first met him. The main changes he's made is to move from Leupold to Sightron scopes, the Series III 8-32X56 LRTD his optics of choice, and from Lapua standard LR brass to the SR 'Palma' case for Raton at any rate. (So far as I know, Palma brass was used by all 15 GB F/TR team members in the FCWC and those US FCN matches that we entered.)

The 155.5gn Berger seems to suit his wind-reading abilities, rifle and bi-pod specifications, and shooting style to a T, and I doubt that he'll move from that bullet unless something similar but substantially better turns up. So far, the 155gn Hybrid doesn't appear to offer any benefits over the 155.5 for most GB shooters who've tried it despite its higher BC value.

My personal opinion FWIW is that the 155.5 Berger is a once-in-a-generation 'super-design' in the same way as the original 155gn Sierra Palma MK (#2155) was a quarter century ago. The 185 Juggernaut may also fall into this category and the choice between the two probably comes down in the last resort to equipment / chamber to bullet compatability and individual shooting style / personal preference.

Laurie - Russell is truly inspirational - not only because he is so good but because his gear is not "flash".

I do wish there was a wind reading forum - for the trouble it would probably cause I am sure much could still be gleaned.

Anyway to my question - what fps was the GB team running the 155s at in Raton?

 

[Laurie]

I can't speak for others, but my Berger 155.5s were getting almost dead on 3,100 fps from a 32-inch Broughton 5C and 8208 XBR in small primer Lapua brass. Back home, the same load but with different powder and primer lots runs at 3,053 fps which is the sort of speed I look for - fast enough, but not so loaded as to destroy barrels in under 2,000 rounds.

 

[DennisH]

Those of you shooting FTR, what is your bullet of choice from your actual trials and experiments? Any one bullet you keep coming back to etc?

I am having a bear getting my new barrel to be consitstent with 215 hybrids and tried some 185 juggernauts in it and loves them. The juggernauts have been very easy to tune. Curious as to some of the other Berger heavies ease of tunability.

Watching the other thread on 308 FTR bullets at Raton thread closely.

So what has been the most successful for you so far?

185 juggernauts is my bullet of choice, 600yds. I have to admit the smk168's, Hybrids, and Berger 190's do pretty good.

 

[broncman]

I watched Chuck Frutchey shoot a 198 or 199 -11x last fall at butner on the 600 yard line with 168 SMK!

Just got back from my 300 yard range this evening testing some more. Again my Juggernaut load was best with slightly under 1 1/2" group in some windy condtions. Now going to play with seating depth.

Ken

 

[PRECISIONWELDING01]

[/quote]

Ken, I'd either take that barrel back to the smith and have him take off 1/4 to 1/2 inch and rechamber it for the 185s or I'd get another barrel. If you don't have access to one I have a PT&G 2013 FTR reamer with a .168 throat. I loaned it to Thomas for his new Palma rifle but when it gets back it will have cut two chambers if you want to borrow it.
[/quote]
Thanks for the reamer wade it is at the smith right now. Truly spoken if you can not read the wind a 275 grain bullet would not help