308 bullet suggestions for 1000 yards

[amlevin]

Just ordered a box of the Sierra 175 grain tipped Matchkings to try after I saw their BC and lower cost. Anyone tried them? They should do well in my 1-10 twist 24" barrel I would think.

I tried a box and then bought a couple of large bulk boxes because I liked them a lot.

I use the same charge weight as I did with my 175 SMK's but did have to "tune" the seating depth a little due to the design change.

This bullet has a much higher BC than the SMK and better yet, it has that BC at 2400 fps or more, unlike the SMK that needed to go faster to maintain it's BC. Mine leave my 24" 1:10 bbl at 2640 and accuracy is <.3 MOA.

 

[ZenArchery]

Contact Berger Bullet's they will talk you through process.
I went with 190 VLD's.
Their communications with me was spot on. Results were exactly as expected.
Had me at a 1000 yards with confidence and information.

 

[284winner]

Ya that's about right. I shoot thru a 26" barrel at around 2700. My groups too were in the .25-.30 range out to 600 and .3-.5 at 1000. Gun was better than I was. RL 15 was my best powder.

 

[zanemoseley]

Let me ask you guys a question. Has anyone tried the Sierra Palma out to 1000? It has a BC of .504 and can be pushed faster than the heavier bullets and has less recoil. I've messed with the Strelok app and the only thing that affects wind drift and drop is BC and FPS, you can change the bullet weight from 155 to 310 and it drifts and drops the same.

 

[memilanuk]

Has anyone tried the Sierra Palma out to 1000? It has a BC of .504 and can be pushed faster than the heavier bullets and has less recoil.e.

Ummm... you are aware that for a number of years, F/TR *was* shot primarily using 155 gn bullets? For example, the Berger 155.5 Fullbore, and for those who preferred pills from green boxes, the S2156MK. Running 155s out of a .308 is pretty well mapped out - a monkey could fall off a stump and find an accurate 155 load on the way down 9 times out of 10. I still think they are an excellent choice if you want to get started with minimal fuss or effort. They will certainly shoot, and well. What they *don't* do is buck the wind as well as other choices, given a barrel throated to match. Run the numbers for a 155 (of your choice) @ 2950fps, a 185 Juggernaut @ 2750 fps, and a 200 Hybrid @ 2650 fps. Those are all very do-able velocities; some might even say a shade on the conservative side compared to some of the loads you might find on the line some places (the guilty parties know who they are ).

Wind drift 10mph @ 9 o'clock, standard ICAO atmo
B155.5BT @ 2950 8.9 moa
B185BT @ 2750 7.6 moa
B200Hy @ 2650 7.0 moa
B215Hy @ 2500 6.6 moa

Sure, you can run the 155s faster than that. I've seen them run 3100+ on more than one occasion (gets the drift down to 8.2 moa). I've also seen them come apart somewhere around 3200 also You basically cannot run them fast enough to buck the wind better than a heavier bullet with a higher BC, even if it is going somewhat slower. If your program (StreLok) is telling you other wise... get a better ballistics program.

There are still valid reasons for shooting 155s... either you have a stash of them, have a barrel with a slower twist and/or shorter throat, and want to use what you have, etc. As mentioned earlier, the recoil is a lot less, especially over a long day. At mid range (<600yds)... I think you'd be a lot harder pressed to see the benefit of the heavier bullets, and frankly, the dang things are expensive and the (competitive) barrel life is shorter.

 

[Mr Underbridge]

I shoot sierra 155 and 90%of my shooting is out to 600 yards.
I'm a novice the 155(sierra 2155) teach me more about the wind than something like berger 185 jugg.
It helps too with the fact that I got the 155 for half the price

 

[zanemoseley]

Ummm... you are aware that for a number of years, F/TR *was* shot primarily using 155 gn bullets? For example, the Berger 155.5 Fullbore, and for those who preferred pills from green boxes, the S2156MK. Running 155s out of a .308 is pretty well mapped out - a monkey could fall off a stump and find an accurate 155 load on the way down 9 times out of 10. I still think they are an excellent choice if you want to get started with minimal fuss or effort. They will certainly shoot, and well. What they *don't* do is buck the wind as well as other choices, given a barrel throated to match. Run the numbers for a 155 (of your choice) @ 2950fps, a 185 Juggernaut @ 2750 fps, and a 200 Hybrid @ 2650 fps. Those are all very do-able velocities; some might even say a shade on the conservative side compared to some of the loads you might find on the line some places (the guilty parties know who they are ).

Wind drift 10mph @ 9 o'clock, standard ICAO atmo
B155.5BT @ 2950 8.9 moa
B185BT @ 2750 7.6 moa
B200Hy @ 2650 7.0 moa
B215Hy @ 2500 6.6 moa

Sure, you can run the 155s faster than that. I've seen them run 3100+ on more than one occasion (gets the drift down to 8.2 moa). I've also seen them come apart somewhere around 3200 also You basically cannot run them fast enough to buck the wind better than a heavier bullet with a higher BC, even if it is going somewhat slower. If your program (StreLok) is telling you other wise... get a better ballistics program.

There are still valid reasons for shooting 155s... either you have a stash of them, have a barrel with a slower twist and/or shorter throat, and want to use what you have, etc. As mentioned earlier, the recoil is a lot less, especially over a long day. At mid range (<600yds)... I think you'd be a lot harder pressed to see the benefit of the heavier bullets, and frankly, the dang things are expensive and the (competitive) barrel life is shorter.

Using Strelok at 1000 yards I got the following drifts with a 10mph crosswind. Since the 155 Sierra Palma is superior in the BC dept I used it for comparison. Basically it matches the performance of the 185VLD at less recoil.

Sierra 155 Palma .504BC @ 2950 7.56 MOA
B185VLD .549BV @ 2750 7.47 moa
B200Hy .624BC @ 2650 6.64 moa
B215Hy .696BC @ 2500 6.28 moa

 

[Mr Underbridge]

Using Strelok at 1000 yards I got the following drifts with a 10mph crosswind. Since the 155 Sierra Palma is superior in the BC dept I used it for comparison. Basically it matches the performance of the 185VLD at less recoil.

Sierra 155 Palma .504BC @ 2950 7.56 MOA
B185VLD .549BV @ 2750 7.47 moa
B200Hy .624BC @ 2650 6.64 moa
B215Hy .696BC @ 2500 6.28 moa

Real world numbers for the palma

Using Strelok at 1000 yards I got the following drifts with a 10mph crosswind. Since the 155 Sierra Palma is superior in the BC dept I used it for comparison. Basically it matches the performance of the 185VLD at less recoil.

Sierra 155 Palma .504BC @ 2950 7.56 MOA
B185VLD .549BV @ 2750 7.47 moa
B200Hy .624BC @ 2650 6.64 moa
B215Hy .696BC @ 2500 6.28 moa

Real world of sierra 155 palam is considerably lower. Litz did an article on it a while back.

 

[memilanuk]

Having put my fair share of 155s (of various flavors) down range over the years....

1. Use G7 BC numbers. We're not shooting old school round nose or Spitzer flat base pills here.

2. Sierra's G1 BC numbers are published for velocity bands for a reason. If you use the highest BC for the whole trajectory, the results will be somewhat... optimistic - and wrong. If your ballistic program won't let you enter all the G1 BC numbers and all the velocity bands, and you can't find verified G7 BCs for your bullet, you aren't going to get accurate results. Try using this free calculator; it's results are fairly accurate:

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi

3. The S2156MK was created in response to the B155.5BT.... but it ain't magically that much better. Actual numbers (G7) are more like .229 (Sierra) vs. .237 (Berger). The US FTR team used Berger 155.5 BTs to good effect @ the 2009 FCWC.

4. The numbers I posted correlate pretty closely (especially for the 155s) with my experience. Not theoretical or calculated, but actual rounds down range *in the wind*.

 

[benchracer]

I just started shooting my .308 @ 1000 yards, using 155 Sierra Palmas @ 2990 from a 26" barrel. The 155's are far less expensive than Berger bullets and have some advantages over the heavies, but wind drift is not among the advantages. The 155 SMK's drift very nearly 1 MOA/MPH of wind @ 1000 yards, while the 185 VLD Juggernauts drift about .7 MOA/MPH of wind. To even stay in the black on a 1000 yard F-T/R target while shooting the 155's, your wind call has to be within +/- 2 mph. The heavies give a bit more margin for error.

The top competitors make their choices based on what will give them even one more X in a match, which can often determine the winner. The heavies seem to be more popular among the top shooters. I am nowhere near being one of the top shooters. I prefer the 155's because they are a better match to my needs, equipment, and skills.

 

[Mr Underbridge]

I recently got 2000 155 Sierra palmas for half their usual price. I am a newbie, the 155 will give me lots of feedback in the wind and will teach me more.
Better to shoot 10 155 palmas than 2 Bergers
Unless you are a good shot and do well in wind reading and all that.

 

[benchracer]

I recently got 2000 155 Sierra palmas for half their usual price. I am a newbie, the 155 will give me lots of feedback in the wind and will teach me more.
Better to shoot 10 155 palmas than 2 Bergers
Unless you are a good shot and do well in wind reading and all that.

Mirrors my own thinking on the subject...

 

[P72]

Palma shooters do 800, 900 & 1000 with 155's using lots of Varget in 29 inch or so barrels.

Sierra designed their 175 to remain super-sonic out at 1000 yards or so and I imagine the Hornady 178 or various Berger bullets might work.

It might be of interest to take a look at drag effects or form factors before discarding the lighter bullets in favor of heavier ones. Lighter bullets can be driven faster.

 

[memilanuk]

It might be of interest to take a look at drag effects or form factors before discarding the lighter bullets in favor of heavier ones.

Trust me, it's been looked at - closely, and repeatedly. Every major national F/TR team are running heavier rather than lighter. If you think they're completely full of it... well, to each their own.

Lighter bullets can be driven faster.

As I mentioned earlier, typically not enough faster, without risking structural failure.

 

[P72]

I am looking at page 164 - 170 of the Berger manual, the business about "Form Factors", and then the table on page 169. Of the .30 caliber Berger bullets only the 185 Juggernaut, 190 VLD and 210 VLD's have less measured drag ("how efficiently a bullet flies, regardless of the bullet's weight"). These values have a range of a maximum of less than 2 percent.

No doubt the F/TR teams are using heavier bullets possibly because they are conservative and are in a transitional phase searching for perfection.

The key to this discussion is how fast can a 185 Juggenaut, 190 VLD or 210 grain VLD bullet be fired from a .308 to effect a ballistic advantage with their less than 2 percent lower or better drag characteristics as compared to a 155.5 at some 250 fps faster?

For me, the discussion about Form Factors on page 164 through page 170 in the Berger manual written by Bryan Litz has much validity. I trust the analysis that has been presented.

Or, ". Form factor indicates how much drag the bullet has, which is a very important consideration for all bullets of all calibers" Page 170.

 

[venatic]

I did notice Litz winning a big Palma match this past season I believe he was using 215gr Berger in .308....

 

[memilanuk]

No doubt the F/TR teams are using heavier bullets possibly because they are conservative and are in a transitional phase searching for perfection.

2009 FCWC - team USA FTR won using B155.5BTs @ 2950-3000 fps
2013 FCWC - team USA FTR won using B185 Juggernauts @ 2750-2800 fps
2017 FCWC - team USA FTR is using B200 Hybrids @ 2650-2700 for the upcoming event. I'd say our odds are good

Reinvent the wheel if you like; the rest of us have already been there and moved on.

 

[XTR]

MV it temporary, BC is forever.

P72, there are a lot of people who have been down this road before. If you find yourself in the bushes you missed a turn.

 

[Dgd6mm]

P72 , listen to the experience of these men, you will be glad you did.

 

[P72]

Let's see -- my innocent question was - ".... how fast can a 185 Juggernaut, 190 grain VLD, or 210 VLD bullet be driven from a .308 to effect a ballistic advantage with their 2 percent lower or better drag characteristics as compared to a 155.5 at some 250 fps faster?" Numbers?

In response - (1) recital of various wins using heavier bullets (2) non-specific references from past experiences and progression from those experiences ("moving on"), (3) a statement to the effect that BC is forever (what about weight independent drag?), (4) getting lost in the bushes (I know how to use a compass, GPS, and know where the North star is -- is this applicable to this discussion) ,(5) an admonishment or advisory to "listen to the experience of these men, you will be glad you did" - what experience? what qualifications?, and (6) an admonishment to stop thinking about stuff contrary to accepted practices that have had past successes ("re-inventing the wheel").

I have no doubt that Bryan Litz had some very valid reasons for selecting some heavy bullet to use in his .308 Palma competition but what were these reasons?

Possibly we need some specific reasons why heavier bullets are more suitable and some type of discussion why the material presented in pages 164 - 170 of the Berger manual ("form factors") is of secondary importance to the selection of heavier bullets having lower velocities. I hope this discussion will show some knowledge of the differences between BC and "form factors" which would indicate a read of pages 164 - 170 and an understanding of "form factors".

Possibly some constructive advice such as components used like brass, primers, and powders. Rifle barrel characteristics - twist, land/groove configuration. A description of ammo loading procedures to produce winning ammo would be of much value as this matter is about what bullet to use at 1000.

Just trying to learn more and waiting for the experts out there to help me do so.