308 bullet suggestions for 1000 yards

[Steve Blair]

Jerry, the only other caliber .30 bullets I use are 230 Hybrids. I have tried them in F-TR but cannot manage the recoil. I do use them is my .300 WSM where they have been effective.

 

[Mr Underbridge]

My friend has a 300 win mag that shoots those heavies.
He has a very heavy barrel and uses aims 2.0 chassi. The weight of the rig absorbs most of the recoil.

 

[P72]

Possibly my velocities are sort of "anemic" but they are all uniformly at the same range which is the maximum shown on various manuals thus the paper ballistics would be comparatively uniform. My 155 bullet velocities are under the max loads shown in some manuals with pressures estimated to be about 60,000 psi. All other bullets were of max or greater velocities as shown in various manuals. A quick cost analysis of buying 500 various bullets to test stopped any consideration of that.

My opinion on this would be to look at the form factors of the bullets that would work well in the Savage rifle then select those with the lowest form factors and ideally those with form factors of less than 1.0. Additional analysis prior to buying those bullets at the LGS would include running a ballistic program to get a very good estimate of velocities at 1000 to verify they would remain supersonic. A run of the Miller twist program using bullet length to verify suitability in that particular rifle would complete the paper analysis prior to the actual expenditure event. Most .30 caliber rifles are 1-10 so that would provide non-eventful.

Upon reading the "form factor" section in the Berger manual I noticed that none of the .30 caliber bullets were designated as "green" or below .950 or having 5% less drag than the G7 standard. Further reading indicated that efforts were underway to improve this situation. Upon completion of these new bullets it would be only common sense to evaluate improvements then actually shoot them to check things out. An expected consideration would be replacement of the previously used bullets with the new ones. My sense of this, right or wrong, would be that considerable conservatism would exist not to change but that would be pushed aside for the need to win and shoot bullets approaching perfection before the other guys do.

As for the rest of us ordinary mortals not having access to a supply system but blissful freedom of choice, a cost analysis would be one of the very most important considerations.

 

[XTR]

Man you are making this very hard.

In a mag length bullet there are really 4 choices:

• 185s - The 185 LRBT/Jugg/OTM (it is all the same bullet, Berger changed the name a few yrs back, it gets boxed 2 ways as the Jugg in yellow or the OTM in beige boxes, same bullets; or the Berger 185 VLD. Ballistically not significantly different to the Jugg.
• 155s - One of the 155s the best being the Berger 155.5 and the 2156SMK, the difference is probalbly not discernible to even the best shooters.
  
• 175s - any of the 175s, though the 175SMK is an old design has an awful BC compared to others. The 178 Hornady bullet shoots really well in this class (did for me anyway) and will hold almost the windage of a 185. I found it to be a good cost effective alternative to the 185 Juggs for club matches, they shot the same load as the 185s.
  
• 168s - The Berger 168s, not the 168SMK. It can be done, though most move on to something else quickly.

I haven't tried it, but shooting the 200s or heavier you probably can't reasonably do in a mag length round. I think that limits your OAL to about 2.850 or so, maybe 2.900 if you install a Wyatt box. Most folks are running longer freebores to get the bullet out of the case. That is allowed under the F-TR rules both in the US and internationally.

We're talking about reloading and target shooting here. Most use loading manuals as starting points to determine what with work in their rifle.

• With the 155 class bullets most are running them over 3000FPS, in the range of 3100±. The sling and coat shooters are still running these, (I have loaned my 2013 FTR reamer to a few lately who are setting up to run the 185s.) For comparison to what ever you have been loading, the load they are running is about 46gr of Varget in a 95 Palma chamber, which will still fit in a mag if I recall correctly. There is almost nobody using this bullet in F-TR. Maybe one shooter in 100 still shoots the 155s. When they do it's because they are shooting the 155s at shorter ranges and they just don't want a separate load for long range.

• With the 185s most are running in the range of 2750 give or take 30FPS. They work really well there, and have for a whole lot of people. If you are mag length you should be in the range of 43 to 43.5 gr of Varget. I had a mag length load about 5 yrs ago that was loaded over 43.5 and it popped primers one summer day (though the ammo ended up in the cab of my truck in the summer sun for a couple of hours between relays that day) It shot great otherwise.

• The 175 class bullets has been eclipsed, I don't have any experience with other than the 175SMK many yrs ago. It can't make the velocity and took about 4MOA more than the 185s to get to 1000 yards.

You can evaluate form factors to understand why, but there is the short cut to what is on the range. If you remove the limitation of mag length you bring the Berger 200 Hybrid, the 208Amax, the Berger 215 Hybrid into the mix. Right now I'd guess that there is about a 60:40 split on the line in F-TR between the 200 and the 185, with a small percentage running the 215s, recoil management is the issue here, lots of people find that they lose points to rifle handling with the 215s (and more so with those who have tried the 230s). That is what is working on the range today.

 

[mysticplayer]

Jerry, the only other caliber .30 bullets I use are 230 Hybrids. I have tried them in F-TR but cannot manage the recoil. I do use them is my .300 WSM where they have been effective.

SB, Would be interesting to see how your load tuning style and barrel would result for muzzle velocity of the 185J. I bet that barrel would have comfortably pushed the 185J to 2700fps with mag length ammo.

I try to test as much as possible the various questions I chat about. yep, it amounts to a lot of money and shooting but I have learnt a long time ago, printed info doesn't always jive with real world results.

WRT to load manuals, I took a quick look at the Hodgdon site as they have the most common powders used and likely current data. With the 155's in a 308, 24" barrel, vast majority of loads maxed out UNDER 2900fps. Can it be loaded faster and be accurate... of course.

Is over 2900fps the "norm", not when you look at published data. So if you are going to pick one way to look at data, that has to be applied to all subjects.

On the same site, 180's were around 2660fps and 190's were around 2570fps - how does the ballistics work out now?

BUT all the number crunching in the world is moot when bullets go through targets at 1000yds. And when shooters start launching lead wrt to the best LR balance of recoil, ballistics and ability to hit the target, the result is clear. Bigger, to a point, is better (no problem shooting and controlling 230's in my FTR rifle)

Initial velocity may have a significant role at short to mid range BUT real world BC takes over when distances go to 1000yds and beyond.

If you chat with a Palma shooter, their rule of thumb is 1MOA for every MPH at 1000yds. That is a very simple way to remember your dope. Ask a current FTR shooter, I bet their value is a lot less... mine certainly is.

A pleasant afternoon shooting with others using a range of bullets on a marked target will be a very enlightening experience... and a lot of fun.

If you are near a range that shoots F class at 1000yds, try and volley fire with a few shooters, each with a different bullet and see where all the bullets end up on their target. Make sure the zeros are good and of course, the mechanical accuracy of each rifle/ammo to be similarly good.

Volley fire means all shooters fire their rifle at the same time... 3, 2, 1 BANG. When the targets pop back up, plot where each shot goes. 10rds on a windy day and you will have your answer.

Everyone holds on the same place and just let the bullet do what it is going to do.

Jerry