.300 WSM WOW!

[ShootDots]

If this is true, here's something to consider - the longer you wait between cleanings, the harder it is to get all the junk out. From that perspective, cleaning every time is actually LESS work.

You are correct Ned! When I come back from a 2 or 3 day event and have not cleaned my rifle, JB is the answer. I always clean out the "loose carbon", then grab the JB and go to work. Not only does JB make quick "work" of a potentially tough cleaning job, it gets everything, Copper, Hard Carbon and sort of "smooths" everything out.

 

[rtatro]

View attachment 1093600

Case life is 8-9 firings. Barrel life is ~1800 rounds. The misunderstanding most shooters have is that .284 Win and .284 Shehane are basically the same. They are not. When both are loaded with 180 Hybrids, .284 Win is probably best served with H4350. I've used it myself. .284 Shehane, however, has just enough case capacity to exploit the slower, cooler H4831SC, and obtain higher velocity and longer barrel life as a benefit. Fire-forming cases is a PITA and not for everyone, but offers the mentioned advantages.

I initially used IMR 7828 SSC in my .300 WSM with 34" barrel and 230 Hybrids. The load produced ~2950 fps and was very precise. Unfortunately, I could not manage bag handling, no matter how many tricks. Dropping to H4831SC produced ~2865 fps, similar precision, a broad .8 grain window, and barely manageable bag characteristics. My .300 WSM is a BAT 3LL in Manners carbon fiber stock and weighs 21# 14oz. (9.92 kilos for the Imperially challenged)

 

[rtatro]

View attachment 1093600

Case life is 8-9 firings. Barrel life is ~1800 rounds. The misunderstanding most shooters have is that .284 Win and .284 Shehane are basically the same. They are not. When both are loaded with 180 Hybrids, .284 Win is probably best served with H4350. I've used it myself. .284 Shehane, however, has just enough case capacity to exploit the slower, cooler H4831SC, and obtain higher velocity and longer barrel life as a benefit. Fire-forming cases is a PITA and not for everyone, but offers the mentioned advantages.

I initially used IMR 7828 SSC in my .300 WSM with 34" barrel and 230 Hybrids. The load produced ~2950 fps and was very precise. Unfortunately, I could not manage bag handling, no matter how many tricks. Dropping to H4831SC produced ~2865 fps, similar precision, a broad .8 grain window, and barely manageable bag characteristics. My .300 WSM is a BAT 3LL in Manners carbon fiber stock and weighs 21# 14oz. (9.92 kilos for the Imperially challenged)

Can you please share your twist rate for the 300 WSM combos you discuss? Thanks.

 

[Steve Blair]

Can you please share your twist rate for the 300 WSM combos you discuss? Thanks.

I started with 10" twist barrels and then ordered 9.75". A 9.5" would be optimal but even a 9.0" would work well.

 

[Hengehold]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I have noticed many members quoting ballistic charts with a “10 mph cross wind” as a reoccurring value that is used for the wind variable. I have been shooting Palma rifles for about 15 years now in the USA. On a moderate-average wind condition day most competent Palma shooters are able to read the wind within +/- 1mph at 1000yds. In the toughest conditions they may miss a wind call by 2 or even 3 mph. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY misses a wind call by 10 mph. Consequently, I feel it is misleading to compare wind drift between calibers using a 10mph crosswind.

I submit that a more appropriate approach is to compare wind drift between cartridges with a wind drift of 1 or 2 mph cross wind because if you miss a wind call, that is how much you will typically miss it by. When using this as a planning factor it will become obvious that there is very little difference in wind drift between similar performing cartridges. To illustrate my point I will compare a 308 Win and a 6.5-284.

-308 Win (155.5gr Berger @ 3010fps), 1000yd wind drift= 8.4in per mph

-6.5x284 (140 hybrid @ 2950fps),
1000yd wind drift= 6.4in per mph

That is a significant difference because a typical missed wind call will result in a difference of the the point of impact by 2 inches.

Compare the 300WSM and 284 Win or SAUM with the same 1 or 2 mph cross wind concept and the evidence to support one cartridge having far superior wind drift is not as obvious.

-Trevor

 

[ShootDots]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I have noticed many members quoting ballistic charts with a “10 mph cross wind” as a reoccurring value that is used for the wind variable. I have been shooting Palma rifles for about 15 years now in the USA. On a moderate-average wind condition day most competent Palma shooters are able to read the wind within +/- 1mph at 1000yds. In the toughest conditions they may miss a wind call by 2 or even 3 mph. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY misses a wind call by 10 mph. Consequently, I feel it is misleading to compare wind drift between calibers using a 10mph crosswind.

I submit that a more appropriate approach is to compare wind drift between cartridges with a wind drift of 1 or 2 mph cross wind because if you miss a wind call, that is how much you will typically miss it by. When using this as a planning factor it will become obvious that there is very little difference in wind drift between similar performing cartridges. To illustrate my point I will compare a 308 Win and a 6.5-284.

-308 Win (155.5gr Berger @ 3010fps), 1000yd wind drift= 8.4in per mph

-6.5x284 (140 hybrid @ 2950fps),
1000yd wind drift= 6.4in per mph

That is a significant difference because a typical missed wind call will result in a difference of the the point of impact by 2 inches.

Compare the 300WSM and 284 Win or SAUM with the same 1 or 2 mph cross wind concept and the evidence to support one cartridge having far superior wind drift is not as obvious.

-Trevor

I understand exactly what you are saying. However, most, or maybe all, of these "wind drift" calculations are based on a mathematical formula, which I have no doubt is correct. Having said that, when you are shooting at 600 or 1000 yards, the wind velocity is different as you make your way down the range to the target. Then couple that with variations in the topography of the range and those mathematical calculations can and I believe do get undermined by "real world" conditions. It has been MY experience that once the bullet has slowed down to a substantial degree, that is when all those "range conditions" down the range, can wreak havoc with lighter bullets. Inertia has a way of keeping heavy bullets from being as ill-effected by those conditions as light ones are. I have seen it where light bullets, out at 1000 yards, have a tendency to end up with quite a bit of vertical due to updrafts or downdrafts, where the heavies are still effected, just not to the degree the lighter ones are. That is a personal observation borne out of shooting A LOT of both the lighter bullets and the very heavy ones.. I am not trying to debate your point, it is well taken, just posing my personal observations..

 

[Longrange57]

I understand exactly what you are saying. However, most, or maybe all, of these "wind drift" calculations are based on a mathematical formula, which I have no doubt is correct. Having said that, when you are shooting at 600 or 1000 yards, the wind velocity is different as you make your way down the range to the target. Then couple that with variations in the topography of the range and those mathematical calculations can and I believe do get undermined by "real world" conditions. It has been MY experience that once the bullet has slowed down to a substantial degree, that is when all those "range conditions" down the range, can wreak havoc with lighter bullets. Inertia has a way of keeping heavy bullets from being as ill-effected by those conditions as light ones are. I have seen it where light bullets, out at 1000 yards have a tendency to end up with quite a bit of vertical due to updrafts or downdrafts, where the heavies are still effected, just not to the degree the lighter ones are. That is a personal observation borne out of shooting A LOT of both the lighter bullets and the very heavy ones.. I am not trying to debate your point, it is well taken, just posing my personal observations..

Very well said...my experience has been exactly the same. We actually did a test amongst a group of us with 3 different calibers with matching ballistics and a five shot group of 180 gr 7mm did not move as much as the 6 and 6.5mm. I've seen it many times. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I have enjoyed reading this thread. I have noticed many members quoting ballistic charts with a “10 mph cross wind” as a reoccurring value that is used for the wind variable. I have been shooting Palma rifles for about 15 years now in the USA. On a moderate-average wind condition day most competent Palma shooters are able to read the wind within +/- 1mph at 1000yds. In the toughest conditions they may miss a wind call by 2 or even 3 mph. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY misses a wind call by 10 mph. Consequently, I feel it is misleading to compare wind drift between calibers using a 10mph crosswind.

I submit that a more appropriate approach is to compare wind drift between cartridges with a wind drift of 1 or 2 mph cross wind because if you miss a wind call, that is how much you will typically miss it by. When using this as a planning factor it will become obvious that there is very little difference in wind drift between similar performing cartridges. To illustrate my point I will compare a 308 Win and a 6.5-284.

-308 Win (155.5gr Berger @ 3010fps), 1000yd wind drift= 8.4in per mph

-6.5x284 (140 hybrid @ 2950fps),
1000yd wind drift= 6.4in per mph

That is a significant difference because a typical missed wind call will result in a difference of the the point of impact by 2 inches.

Compare the 300WSM and 284 Win or SAUM with the same 1 or 2 mph cross wind concept and the evidence to support one cartridge having far superior wind drift is not as obvious.

-Trevor

It doesn't really matter, as long as you use the same value for head-to-head comparison. You can routinely use the deflection value for 1 mph wind if you like, then multiply it by whatever you determine the actual wind value to be when you actually want to use it in a match. Or you can use the 10 mph figure, and move the decimal place over one column for a 1 mph figure and do the same. Using the 10 mph value for comparative purposes is simply "stretching the y-axis" to make any disparity between two values more apparent. However, it is unlikely to represent most actual missed wind calls accurately, as you noted.

 

[rtatro]

I started with 10" twist barrels and then ordered 9.75". A 9.5" would be optimal but even a 9.0" would work well.

Thank you!

 

[ben_g]

On paper an 80.5gr 223 pill as used in F-standard class here in Australia should be able to shoot with the 155gr 308 projectiles allowed in F-standard.

Yet no one who is serious about F-standard uses the 223 beyond 800yards.

Real world experiences are the 155gr simply performs better at the “longs”

The heavy 7mm pills are a hard act to beat in F-open. But I am curious to see if these 215’s give me anything tangible in the 300WSM vs the 7m SAUM.

I am taking both the 300WSM and the SAUM to a 1000/1200 yard F-class shoot next weekend at a range that is notorious for ‘ugly conditions’ so looking forward to finding out.

 

[ngb1787]

I understand exactly what you are saying. However, most, or maybe all, of these "wind drift" calculations are based on a mathematical formula, which I have no doubt is correct. Having said that, when you are shooting at 600 or 1000 yards, the wind velocity is different as you make your way down the range to the target. Then couple that with variations in the topography of the range and those mathematical calculations can and I believe do get undermined by "real world" conditions. It has been MY experience that once the bullet has slowed down to a substantial degree, that is when all those "range conditions" down the range, can wreak havoc with lighter bullets. Inertia has a way of keeping heavy bullets from being as ill-effected by those conditions as light ones are. I have seen it where light bullets, out at 1000 yards, have a tendency to end up with quite a bit of vertical due to updrafts or downdrafts, where the heavies are still effected, just not to the degree the lighter ones are. That is a personal observation borne out of shooting A LOT of both the lighter bullets and the very heavy ones.. I am not trying to debate your point, it is well taken, just posing my personal observations..

In my opinion, for 95% of the shooters out there, all calibers and equipment are better than shooters. Shooters especially fclass are constantly looking for next greatest piece of equipment to improve their game. However what most forget to do is spend time on range studying and learning wind and mirage. BTW here in the southwest we rarely see range winds at full value above 5mph, it happens but rarely. Know your equipment, know ur reloading skills are good, learn how to read the wind.

 

[ben_g]

Yes the shooters ability to read wind is still paramount, no matter what cartridge your using if you can’t read the wind you’ll lose to a shooter who can.

However for high end comps where shooters ability to read conditions and implement a strategy are equal the ballistically superior cartridge might net them just a point per day over a 3 day aggregate, but these 3 points can make the difference between winning and 2nd place.

But yes, being able to read conditions and make a perfect shot time after time are more important than the cartridge used.

I have done well with only a Dasher against bigger guns in some comps, but at some stage at an event (well here in Australia anyway) your going to find yourself with 8 or 10 minutes of wind on your 284 at only 900yards and unreadable 2moa plus changes in strength that are literally impossible to read thanks to the sopping wet flags being ripped apart in the gale whipping straight off the sea!!

These are the conditions where a ‘big gun’ might net you a few extra skinny (I’ll use US scoring) 9’s rather than a wide 8 or a 7!!!

 

[Longrange57]

Yes the shooters ability to read wind is still paramount, no matter what cartridge your using if you can’t read the wind you’ll lose to a shooter who can.

However for high end comps where shooters ability to read conditions and implement a strategy are equal the ballistically superior cartridge might net them just a point per day over a 3 day aggregate, but these 3 points can make the difference between winning and 2nd place.

But yes, being able to read conditions and make a perfect shot time after time are more important than the cartridge used.

I have done well with only a Dasher against bigger guns in some comps, but at some stage at an event (well here in Australia anyway) your going to find yourself with 8 or 10 minutes of wind on your 284 at only 900yards and unreadable 2moa plus changes in strength that are literally impossible to read thanks to the sopping wet flags being ripped apart in the gale whipping straight off the sea!!

These are the conditions where a ‘big gun’ might net you a few extra skinny (I’ll use US scoring) 9’s rather than a wide 8 or a 7!!!

LOL! Agree

 

[ben_g]

Managed a quick range outing today.

Only tested at 100/200yards

RL23 certainly gets the 215’s moving along better than 2213sc.

At 66.0gr I started to get pressure (2990fps)

64.0 and 64.5gr shot approx 0.25” groups at 100yards with the 64.5gr load running at 2930fps

I will work around this load at 1000 and 1200yards this weekend and see how it goes. Hopefully the conditions are kind.

 

[ShootDots]

Managed a quick range outing today.

Only tested at 100/200yards

RL23 certainly gets the 215’s moving along better than 2213sc.

At 66.0gr I started to get pressure (2990fps)

64.0 and 64.5gr shot approx 0.25” groups at 100yards with the 64.5gr load running at 2930fps

I will work around this load at 1000 and 1200yards this weekend and see how it goes. Hopefully the conditions are kind.

Hello Ben! I believe that you will find out that even though Alliant states in their literature that RL-23 is slower burning than RL-22, that is bologna! RL-22 is slightly slower (maybe by a few tenths grains) than H4831sc, however, RL23 is faster burning than H4831sc. I don't know where Alliant gets their information from, but it 'taint from shooters! RL-23 produces LOADS of velocity.. Just remember it is faster burning than H4831sc..

 

[Joe Salt]

Velocity and Less pressure and you can fill the case!

Joe Salt

 

[Papa Charlie]

@ ShootsDots,

I have been contemplating changing my F-Class .308 to another caliber. I have been toying with going with .284 but have always wanted the 300 WM, but that would require a whole new setup. After reading this thread, I am considering the 300 WSM. It seems as though I would only require a new barrel and a magnum bolt to make the change.
What twist, contour and barrel length does your rifle have? I would like to run the 215gr Berger Hybrids. Any recommendations you would be willing to share would be greatly appreciated.
Patrick

 

[ShootDots]

@ ShootsDots,

I have been contemplating changing my F-Class .308 to another caliber. I have been toying with going with .284 but have always wanted the 300 WM, but that would require a whole new setup. After reading this thread, I am considering the 300 WSM. It seems as though I would only require a new barrel and a magnum bolt to make the change.
What twist, contour and barrel length does your rifle have? I would like to run the 215gr Berger Hybrids. Any recommendations you would be willing to share would be greatly appreciated.
Patrick

Hello Patrick! My barrel is a 4 groove conventional rifling Krieger. It is a 32" long and a 1.25 inch "straight tube" (no taper at all) and has a 1-9.5 twist. My reamer has .337 neck with a .240 freebore. The best recommendation for getting it to shoot well is to read my initial write-up. I has all the info I experienced with it from shot 1 til about shot 135, prior to my first match. Then it gives you the result of the first match shot.. It gives you everything you will need..

 

[Papa Charlie]

Hello Patrick! My barrel is a 4 groove conventional rifling Krieger. It is a 32" long and a 1.25 inch "straight tube" (no taper at all) and has a 1-9.5 twist. My reamer has .337 neck with a .240 freebore. The best recommendation for getting it to shoot well is to read my initial write-up. I has all the info I experienced with it from shot 1 til about shot 135, prior to my first match. Then it gives you the result of the first match shot.. It gives you everything you will need..

Thanks, I have read your OP. Very informative. I appreciate the additional information. Will be doing a little more research.

 

[ben_g]

We had the full gamut of typical dry, dusty, and hot Aussie conditions to test the WSM put on the weekend.
We started at 1000yards where I spent my time testing my SAUM barrel so the only testing on the WSM was at 1100 and 1200yards.
It’s showing some promise, the 1200yard loads were loaded in the back of my car on a beam scale

We were shooting on UK/Aussie match rifle targets where the central scoring ring is 11”

The WSM certainly seemed to hold course through the rough conditions well, also seemed to be able to keep it within the 11” central when the winds became tailing between 7 and 8 o’clock where others started to lose shots.

More development to do but it’s shoiwng promise.

Will post targets below.