3 or 5 shot groups?

[people]

I disagree that there are "many shooters" who can. And will only agree to a very low percentage....
Have seen it over and over, at competitions, repeatedly play out where the new guy joining in has years of experience to reloading and shooting, but still falls short in the competition world until they gain further knowledge and competitive experience. And can't help but feel I was one of those people back when I first started competing.
The experienced competitor is the one to beat in the long run, not the experienced reloader/shooter/gunsmith who is more times then not, a novice getting in until they get there feet wet. Those type excel faster into the transition, then will the "green rookie", but they still have learning curves.
LHSmith wrote (above): "Competition breeds excellence" ..... I concur !.!.!

My 2-Cents and experience
Donovan

You are right it is a very low percentage. How many posts have you read “how do we get more shooters…” It seems like there is a post on it at least every month. So with that being said look how many have firearms and how many shoot in comps? It is a very low percentage. So?

 

[people]

Perhaps you have a reading comprehension problem. Fact is, I learned more in my 1st year of registered competition (2003) than in all my previous 36 years as a hobbiest reloader and target shooter who seldom missed shooting most weekends. Consider the dead horse beat.

Thank you.

 

[Uthink Uknow]

I posted in this thread once, maybe twice, already. Is it still the three or five shot group thread?
As I shoot only competition at 100, 200, and 300 yards and on the National scale, I can't comment on shooting hunting rifles or shooting 600-1000 yard rifles. My opinion on why there aren't more people shooting competition is because of the competition. Some just don't like regimented or structured competition where you must be at the firing line every so many minutes and shoot so many shots at so many targets so often. I will say this too, you are only as good as the competition. If you go to a small match with seven or eight others, you will only shoot well enough to beat them. Whereas, at a Super Shoot or a National, even a regional match, you will find yourself making shots you could not make at the smaller matches. I am a competitive sort and have been all my life. I thrive on competition and I love to win. This doesn't mean I leave the range after a less than wanted result with sour grapes. That other guy practiced just as much and spent just as much time, effort, and money on shooting as I did. I used to tell Bill Nienow at Holton, "I don't care is I win or not, I just want to beat YOU". That took him aback the first few times. I have won on the National and the Regional level in group and in score. This does not mean I didn't have a good time when I lost. As I told Jim Kelbly after a bad group at the Super Shoot, "Hey, I could be home cutting grass. Of course, I'm having a good time".
I'll go back to what I said 150 responses ago, at this level, shooting three shot groups tests the rifle and shooting five shot groups tests the shooter. Think about that before you jump on me.

 

[JamesnTN]

I posted in this thread once, maybe twice, already. Is it still the three or five shot group thread?
As I shoot only competition at 100, 200, and 300 yards and on the National scale, I can't comment on shooting hunting rifles or shooting 600-1000 yard rifles. My opinion on why there aren't more people shooting competition is because of the competition. Some just don't like regimented or structured competition where you must be at the firing line every so many minutes and shoot so many shots at so many targets so often. I will say this too, you are only as good as the competition. If you go to a small match with seven or eight others, you will only shoot well enough to beat them. Whereas, at a Super Shoot or a National, even a regional match, you will find yourself making shots you could not make at the smaller matches. I am a competitive sort and have been all my life. I thrive on competition and I love to win. This doesn't mean I leave the range after a less than wanted result with sour grapes. That other guy practiced just as much and spent just as much time, effort, and money on shooting as I did. I used to tell Bill Nienow at Holton, "I don't care is I win or not, I just want to beat YOU". That took him aback the first few times. I have won on the National and the Regional level in group and in score. This does not mean I didn't have a good time when I lost. As I told Jim Kelbly after a bad group at the Super Shoot, "Hey, I could be home cutting grass. Of course, I'm having a good time".
I'll go back to what I said 150 responses ago, at this level, shooting three shot groups tests the rifle and shooting five shot groups tests the shooter. Think about that before you jump on me.

Good write up and I'm with you 100% 3 shots is the loads and five are the shooter I'll always believe in that and will always comment the same way.

 

[P1ZombieKiller]

I'll go back to what I said 150 responses ago, at this level, shooting three shot groups tests the rifle and shooting five shot groups tests the shooter. Think about that before you jump on me.

I like this

 

[LHSmith]

To the original question: 3-shot groups for a hunting rifle or walk around varminter, 5-shot groups for a heavy bbl. varmint, or heavy bbl. competition rifle.
Load development 3-shot groups

 

[LHSmith]

Ah you know you can use the internet to find info that will help you be a better shooter? I would think you do as you are here. Maybe you did not start using the web until after you started competing. It is not just competitors who experiment.

There are many guys and gals out there who want to shoot the smallest group they can it is not exclusive to match shooters.

If you search my post history you'll find I don't solicit reloading or shooting tips, I am only here to offer my honest opinion based on my own experience. I am fortunate to be able to obtain all the advice needed through a few mentors who have set records, and garnered substantial shooter points in short-range BR. FWIW these mentors, and most top ranked short-range BR notables stay away from the internet ( excluding the classifieds) like the plague.
My best advice is to learn to read the wind. What good is an accurate rifle if you only have confidence in it when conditions are "perfect".

 

[Lazer]

What good is an accurate rifle if it's not being fed perfectly.
The 4th and 5th may not be the shooter.

 

[JamesnTN]

What good is an accurate rifle if it's not being fed perfectly.
The 4th and 5th may not be the shooter.

If you put 3 in one hole and you throw one out 1" and then the next one cuts the hole then yes that's shooter error, either mis read the wind, mixed up a load or didn't sort the bullets correctly.

As many have stated they load develop on three shots and once they find what works they tweak here and there and then load up and see how it shoots consistently.
There's no need in shooting five rounds at a target striving for groups in the .1's when you have shot 3-4 rounds that looks like it was hit with a shotgun those next shots are not going to get the group any smaller.
If you go thru 4-5 three shot group testing loads and nothing is grouping you either have the wrong powder, a bad scope or a bad bedding job. Or even a bad barrel.
But if you load 4-5 different loads and shot 3 shot groups and the pattern is say within a half inch and as you go up in charge and you see that group shrink then where are those extra 5 shots going to tell you as for the correct load that three didn't already show ya?

 

[Lazer]

If 3 go in 1 hole why won't all the rest, if the shooter is 100% confident where the crosshair was when the trigger broke?

 

[JamesnTN]

If 3 go in 1 hole why won't all the rest, if the shooter is 100% confident where the crosshair was when the trigger broke?

If all is same they should the point here is do you shoot 3 shots or five in load developing, my point is if you shoot 3 down range and the group is 1"+ those next two don't make it smaller. But then if you shoot 3 down and they go in same hole and the next two go outside the hole some will say that's not a good load. And give up on it. Where if three go in one hole that gives you something to look at and retry again.
When I load develop I look for three shots that create a triangular group. That gives me something to work with, I can add more powder, use a different neck bushing or a different primer to shrink that triangular group to one hole.
If the three shots shoot some crazy horizontal and or verticle group it just ain't gonna work it only magnifies at longer distances, at least in my findings shooting long range it has.

 

[Lazer]

Sorry James not replying to your last post but your post #145 where you said 5 is the shooter.

 

[michaelnel]

Thought you were done, Lazer. I knew it was too good to be true.

 

[A j shooter]

Read Tony Boyers book he tunes with 3 shot groups. Hall a Fame shooter.
That's all I have to say.😜

 

[Lazer]

Stay tuned Michael you might learn something.

 

[JamesnTN]

Sorry James not replying to your last post but your post #145 where you said 5 is the shooter.

That's correct 3 shots is the load and five shots are the shooter. And again we are talking load development not how well a person can put five down range.

 

[people]

If you search my post history you'll find I don't solicit reloading or shooting tips, I am only here to offer my honest opinion based on my own experience. I am fortunate to be able to obtain all the advice needed through a few mentors who have set records, and garnered substantial shooter points in short-range BR. FWIW these mentors, and most top ranked short-range BR notables stay away from the internet ( excluding the classifieds) like the plague.
My best advice is to learn to read the wind. What good is an accurate rifle if you only have confidence in it when conditions are "perfect".

No need to search your history. I also figured out most of your shooting with the post you did to lazer where I said thank you to.

Wind! That is good advice. I do not know why you posted it to me but ok.

Have a good day.

 

[GSPV]

As prestigious as it is to be a HOF BR shooter, Tony is much more than that. He is simply the best short range BR shooter that has ever toed the line.

Tony buys and evaluates 30 something barrels a year for he and Faye to use. How many of us go through 30 barrels in a lifetime?

To poo-poo that kind of experience and documented record is pretty arrogant.

 

[Lazer]

I'm not taking anything away from tony"s shooting w this 3 or 5 shot debate, hell I don't even know who tony is. What I'm saying is take the best br shooter in the world hand him a remington sps 700 and the game changes.

 

[LHSmith]

If 3 go in 1 hole why won't all the rest, if the shooter is 100% confident where the crosshair was when the trigger broke?

Possibles: wind, target mirage, barrel mirage, inconsistent gun handling ( change in cheek pressure, change in trigger pull, change in wrist grip on stock, change in stock pressure into shoulder), barrel warp from heat, parallax setting incorrect, stock position in rest inconsistent. It is a normal trait for shooters to tense up after shooting the first few shots into a small hole and unknowingly hold the rifle, or pull the trigger differently on the succeeding shots.
Ditto on Boyers book, it's not just for Benchrest competitors....it's for accuracy nuts. It's the best $40 you'll ever spend in this sport and will pay itself many times over in saved components/ barrels load testing the wrong way.