3 or 5 shot groups?

[savagedasher]

22 RIM br it not un common for them to shoot 50 round with 5 different lots at 50 different targets. Then repeat 50 more round with the two best lots doing tuner settings. Total of 350 rounds They always use wind flags and wind meters.
Tuning is different in Rim 22, Bench rest PPC type., F class and long range bench rest.
I like 2 shot groups at 100yd. Testing I don't want perfect conditions. 95% of our winds are Quartering tail or head winds. I tune in the both. The reason I like two shot is. I can get two shot off in 5 to 8 seconds. 5 two shot groups give me better information the 2 5 shot because of the wind.
I tested at the 100 YD Indoor range. What shot there didn't work in a head wind. Larry

 

[JamesnTN]

Lol let's keep it going.... If my intuition is correct someone is about to spill the beans on coming up with a load that defies the law of gravity and physics. ...

I want some of that info lol.

Well you asked for it and here ya go. We don't need to load develop any longer if this comes about.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/15/defense-department-tests-50-caliber-bullet/

 

[sgreen3]

I think I've pretty much come to the conclusion that 3 shots is pretty much the norm for load development. After that its kind of up in the air from the research I've done on this and other forums on how one measures "accuracy" from their rifle. But I will say I'm also a little hesitant on posting group pics although I do it because its fun to talk about. At the end of the day as long as your having fun shooting does it really matter what you do and how you do it. But like most of us I like to get a true idea of how accurate my rifle is not necessarily how accurate I am, which Ill be honest I'm not the greatest by no means. So for me benchrest shooting is just fun if I win cool, if I don't I still had a good time shooting and talking and hanging out with the other guys there shooting as well.

 

[M14AMU]

3 or 5??

Whichever makes you feel that you're the world's best marksman!!

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Twelve 3-shot groups from this morning's range session with my new 30BR, using 1x fireformed brass resized with my just-arrived Harrell's FL die (0.324 bushing on a 0.3272 diameter over the pressure ring) to find a seating depth that is the least sensitive to powder charge and which produces small, round groups. Three charges of H4198 (33.5gr, 34.1gr, 34.7gr), 4 seating depths with the 115gr Berger FB (jam, jam-0.005, jam-0.010, jam-0.015). [Touch = jam-0.017.] Range = 100 yards, 45*F, 5-10mph wind 4-10 o'clock, light rain (which is why the bullet holes are a little ragged in the paper).

Really good barrels and bullets are not super-sensitive to either powder charge or seating depth, although I'll be shooting 34.7gr somewhere between 0.010 and 0.015 off the jam.

Only 464 more shots to go before "the load" is found, eh, Lazer? ;D

 

[michaelnel]

Nice shootin'!

 

[Tim Singleton]

Twelve 3-shot groups from this morning's range session with my new 30BR, using 1x fireformed brass resized with my just-arrived Harrell's FL die (0.324 bushing on a 0.3272 diameter over the pressure ring) to find a seating depth that is the least sensitive to powder charge and which produces small, round groups. Three charges of H4198 (33.5gr, 34.1gr, 34.7gr), 4 seating depths with the 115gr Berger FB (jam, jam-0.005, jam-0.010, jam-0.015). [Touch = jam-0.017.] Range = 100 yards, 45*F, 5-10mph wind 4-10 o'clock, light rain (which is why the bullet holes are a little ragged in the paper).

Really good barrels and bullets are not super-sensitive to either powder charge or seating depth, although I'll be shooting 34.7gr somewhere between 0.010 and 0.015 off the jam.

Only 464 more shots to go before "the load" is found, eh, Lazer? ;D

Yeah buddy
It likes that 1.747 seating depth

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Yeah buddy
It likes that 1.747 seating depth

The feeling is mutual. 8)

 

[jimcasey01]

I think you are about there, very sweet shooting!

 

[Road_Clam]

I am an amateur precision shooter at this time. So exactly how many shots I shoot depends on some circumstances. First being the wind. If I faced with a stiff wind that will sway my averages I will shoot a 5 shot group. On a normal test I will shoot 4 shot groups. If i'm re-testing a previously shot and well documented load and in ideal conditions, I shoot a traditional 3 shot group, and my grouping math is based on the best 3 shots. It's all about acquiring consistent data, documenting that data, and accumulating reliable averages. I've tested over 200 different loads of .223 and .308 in the past few years, and have developed some awesome repeatable data. I generally shoot 200 meters for all my load testing. Then up to mid range (600 yds) and it really helps to know very close velocities out of YOUR barrel for doping.

 

[Lazer]

You got it Toby now all you got to do is take that best load run 5, 5 shot groups and see how consistent it is, and if it meets your accuracy requirements, the load may change a little. Once you do that if you wanna have some real fun take it off that mechanical rest and shoot off bags or a bipod, that will tell you how much the rest is doing. Now take that same load if it hasn't changed, and go enter moboosts 100 yard challenge on the hide, and see where you end up compared to a lot of other good shooters!
Just showing a bunch of 3 shot groups w one 3 shot group being one hole doesn't prove any load development theories. Factory guns that aren't even bedded, are not shot off a rest and are not benchrests cartridges can shoot a one hole 3 shot group, in load development. What I'm saying is prove the load is consistent.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Wouldn't it make more sense to save the barrel for an actual competition among truly precise rifles? You know, the kind of groups where you can't see 5 different bullet holes at 100 yards?

And this rifle IS shot off bags -- nothing but a sandbag touching the forend and the buttstock.

Still waiting for you to tell us how many shots it takes you to "find a load."

 

[michaelnel]

I kinda don't think you have a thing to prove to Lazer, Toby.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

You're right -- I should take my own advice, but sometimes I can't help myself. :-X

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

What I'm saying is prove the load is consistent.

The 33.5gr "load" across all 4 seating depths aggs 0.229, 34.1gr aggs 0.184, 34.7gr aggs 0.142. A quarter of the groups are in the zeros. The extreme spread for all 36 shots (with 12 different loads!) is 0.462. And you're worried about consistency?

I'm starting to wonder if somebody swapped a "u" for the "a" in your username.

 

[Lazer]

Don't start name calling, that's childish. Just enter the challenge with that perfect load. It's a freindly challenge.

 

[SS427]

Toby, after seeing your first groups I was wondering if you would actually change dies. Your original dies don't seem to give up anything to the new dies.

I use a similar technique to find a load. I usually do 3 powder charges at 3 seating depths. 27 rounds and I've found a load in many of my rifles.

You should let Lazer measure those groups for you.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Toby, after seeing your first groups I was wondering if you would actually change dies. Your original dies don't seem to give up anything to the new dies.

I didn't use a neck or FL die on the first target -- I only had a seater die, so I made fitted necks to generate the tight brass to send to the Harrells. In the '80s I shot a 6PPC with a fitted neck and got over 30 reloadings from the cases without ever using a sizer of any kind. They got awfully tight in the base, though. I do think that the current practice of more neck clearance and FL sizing does improve aggs, even though you can shoot some very small groups with a fitted neck.

You should let Lazer measure those groups for you.

I think he doesn't count the width of the paper between the bullet holes. :

 

[Lazer]

Butch can help w the measuring. He helped me.

 

[Subsilent22]

I've been following this thread for the humor and I have to say, wow. Also I can't stand the idea of someone trying to be a person that they are not, you know Posers. So, this is for you Lazer! If you can post a picture of your rifle (with a newspaper which shows the date) that shoots one hole groups Consistantly, list your load data and brass prep regimen and a few pics of your load test targets I wil personally send you two brand new boxes of bullets of your choosing. If you reply to this with anything other than what Im requesting, well that will verify all we need to know and I would appreciate you to stop commenting on things which you really know nothing about.

3 or 5, I shoot 3 until a load looks worthy of 5 shot groups. Once I think I have it I will run a simulated match string, 20 shots 22 min with 2 sighters. If it holds up through that I call it good and start shooting. You can have the most accurate load in the world but if you can't read the conditions and make the right calls you will never win!