3 or 5 shot groups?

[P1ZombieKiller]

I just rebarreled my short BR rifle, and got it back last week. I have several different steps in my load development. Since I shoot a 30br at short range. The 30br loads are all very similar. I already have a good starting range of H4198 powder, but want to get right around that 3000 fps mark. I also make my own bullets, so I don't have the need to test different bullets. I always shoot 5 shot groups even in load development, but that is a personal choice. I pre load, so I preload 5 at each powder setting.

Step 1: Load 33.8 - 35.0 in .3 increments
Step 2: Shoot for group across the chrono to find that 3000 fps node all while shooting for group
Step 3: Take the best groups (regardless of speed) and load 15 of those to test in next step
Step 4: Shoot 3 - 5 shot groups with top 3 loads.

While I will admit it's more shooting than needed, a 30br barrel will go for a really long time. If I was shooting a 6ppc, I would most certainly not shoot this many.
I like my pattern. It gives me the confidence to take that rig, with that load, and compete well. If I don't win, I know it's me, and not the rifle.

I went out today with the 3 sets of 15 rounds to play with. I shoot 3 groups (Always over wind flags) of 5 each. One of the groups would have been REALLY small if I had not missed a condition and toss one a full bullet hole out to the left.

 

[Lazer]

Alright subsilent, your comment did it, I give up. 3 shot groups are king and you can find the perfect load for a rifle w less than 50 rounds.
Will that do it?

 

[stinnett1981]

Lazer I asked you twice if you ever shot in competitions such as F class or tactical match and you never responded? If you have where at and when?

 

[people]

What does shooting in a competition have to do with anything? There are most Americans who never shot in a competition and some of them are capable of shooting winning scores. There are many smiths who can barrel an action capable of winning. It is not just the few are the go to smiths.

 

[RGRobinett]

I just rebarreled my short BR rifle, and got it back last week. I have several different steps in my load development. Since I shoot a 30br at short range. The 30br loads are all very similar. I already have a good starting range of H4198 powder, but want to get right around that 3000 fps mark. I also make my own bullets, so I don't have the need to test different bullets. I always shoot 5 shot groups even in load development, but that is a personal choice. I pre load, so I preload 5 at each powder setting.

Step 1: Load 33.8 - 35.0 in .3 increments
Step 2: Shoot for group across the chrono to find that 3000 fps node all while shooting for group
Step 3: Take the best groups (regardless of speed) and load 15 of those to test in next step
Step 4: Shoot 3 - 5 shot groups with top 3 loads.

While I will admit it's more shooting than needed, a 30br barrel will go for a really long time. If I was shooting a 6ppc, I would most certainly not shoot this many.
I like my pattern. It gives me the confidence to take that rig, with that load, and compete well. If I don't win, I know it's me, and not the rifle.

I went out today with the 3 sets of 15 rounds to play with. I shoot 3 groups (Always over wind flags) of 5 each. One of the groups would have been REALLY small if I had not missed a condition and toss one a full bullet hole out to the left.

P1Z - ya need a .324" bushing! RG

 

[GSPV]

Also, in my experience, with my rigs, 3000 is sort of a dead zone. I get better results from 2950 to somewhere just under 3000, then again from some over 3000 to bout 3050.

There is a higher node. I haven't played there enough to speak intelligently about it.

Greg J

 

[LHSmith]

What does shooting in a competition have to do with anything? There are most Americans who never shot in a competition and some of them are capable of shooting winning scores. There are many smiths who can barrel an action capable of winning. It is not just the few are the go to smiths.

Because those who compete have usually advanced their load tuning skills and as a result this allows taking their shooting skills beyond that of the hobbyist shooter. These skills are learned through exhaustive quality trigger pulling time exceeding thousands of rounds annually. The very fact that Lazer chooses to ignore monitoring conditions during accuracy tests means all of his results are invalid and expecting any consistency in such testing is ludicrous. In competition consistency RULES, which is why matches are won by the AGG, not who shot the best single target.
While it is certainly true that a first time shooter has won occasionally in sanctioned matches, it usually is an anomaly and is very difficult for them to repeat in the following matches in short-term.
Regarding smiths......as a example for the F.I.S.S. (Super Shoot) which is the largest (over 350 competitors) short range BR group match held annually at Kelbly's range, there are perhaps a dozen smith names commonly found in the top 20, the rest are "self" smiths...meaning accomplished competitors who do their own chambering and assembly. I check the F.I.S.S results religiously and I don't recall a novice competitor who did his own work making the top 20 in recent history. At that level of competition you better have a rifle(s) that shoots in the ones.

 

[GSPV]

Twelve 3-shot groups from this morning's range session with my new 30BR, using 1x fireformed brass resized with my just-arrived Harrell's FL die (0.324 bushing on a 0.3272 diameter over the pressure ring) to find a seating depth that is the least sensitive to powder charge and which produces small, round groups. Three charges of H4198 (33.5gr, 34.1gr, 34.7gr), 4 seating depths with the 115gr Berger FB (jam, jam-0.005, jam-0.010, jam-0.015). [Touch = jam-0.017.] Range = 100 yards, 45*F, 5-10mph wind 4-10 o'clock, light rain (which is why the bullet holes are a little ragged in the paper).

Really good barrels and bullets are not super-sensitive to either powder charge or seating depth, although I'll be shooting 34.7gr somewhere between 0.010 and 0.015 off the jam.

Only 464 more shots to go before "the load" is found, eh, Lazer? ;D

Toby,
I'd try 2 more thou neck tension and see if bumping tnt powder charge a hair more doesn't help.

Laser,
Basically all of us shooting serious competition can do this because we are just fine tuning from an already-proven load. If you handed us a totally unknown cartridge, powder, bullet, etc combination, it would NOT happen this fast.

 

[P1ZombieKiller]

P1Z - ya need a .324" bushing! RG

I have one in my other die. I like having a set of bushings for each separate die. Santa Claus is bringing me one (as well as a 325), but I'm not allowed to open any of the presents I bought for.... He brought me.

 

[Lazer]

Thanks people,
Gsp, your exactly right and that is where I was headed next. Hand a br shooter a new rifle that's not a br cartridge and 50 shot load development will go nowhere.

 

[seymour fish]

To provide further counterpoint to the 500 round business: Take unknown rifle, say a 308. Find the Jam and back off whatever. Find consensus on appropriate powders, etc, and rough idea of mild load to start. quickload, a guru, your brother-in-law, etc. Load a 1 shot ladder to scan for a rough node that is 1 to 1-1/2 grains wide. There goes mebbe 11 shots before early pressure signs. Load 5 at 0.3 gr below center of node, 5 at exact center, 5 at 0.3 gr above the center. Woulodnt hurt if you chronoed the ladder. Cipher 1000 yd dope off your newly found 100 zero and MV , and shoot these three 5-shot groups thru chrono. Now you are at 26 total shots, somewhere on paper, and likely have some 1 MOA groups which might reveal in tea-leaf fashion what bits of fine tuning are called for, and a hint on ES. Twenty-Six Rounds, and you are damn-close. 26.0 TwoSixer. TWOSIXEROOOSKY. Seymour

 

[LHSmith]

Thanks people,
Gsp, your exactly right and that is where I was headed next. Hand a br shooter a new rifle that's not a br cartridge and 50 shot load development will go nowhere.

I totally disagree. Once a shooter develops an innate understanding of condition reading, and how to "tune", that knowledge carries over to other chamberings/ rifles which shortens the learning curve ( and the # of shots required to assess a load). If you shoot enough you can actual feel when the rifle/ load combination is in tune by the way it recoils. A big reason this is possible is the competitive shooter has learned to minimize as many variables as possible which is why they shoot from proven Benchrest mechanical rests and solid rear bag which incorporate some means to allow the shooter to quickly and easily change POA to allow for condition changes during the firing of the group.

 

[P1ZombieKiller]

Give Lazer a break

You guys stop picking on my good buddy Lazer. The batteries in his light amplified emission of radiation is running very low. He sometimes get confused with decimal points. He meant to say 50 rounds... not 500....

 

[GSPV]

The flip side is that our sport is very demanding. We have a good understanding of what makes a load work or not. We have a ton of experience tuning and are very organized about it.

There is almost always some kind of data out there to start from, if we're open minded.

On this site, we have people that have been proven in the crucible of national competition giving freely of their knowledge.

We each choose whether to be open minded enough to make use of that knowledge.

--Edit: dang, Mr Smith, you got there before me..

 

[people]

Because those who compete have usually advanced their load tuning skills and as a result this allows taking their shooting skills beyond that of the hobbyist shooter. These skills are learned through exhaustive quality trigger pulling time exceeding thousands of rounds annually. The very fact that Lazer chooses to ignore monitoring conditions during accuracy tests means all of his results are invalid and expecting any consistency in such testing is ludicrous. In competition consistency RULES, which is why matches are won by the AGG, not who shot the best single target.
While it is certainly true that a first time shooter has won occasionally in sanctioned matches, it usually is an anomaly and is very difficult for them to repeat in the following matches in short-term.
Regarding smiths......as a example for the F.I.S.S. (Super Shoot) which is the largest (over 350 competitors) short range BR group match held annually at Kelbly's range, there are perhaps a dozen smith names commonly found in the top 20, the rest are "self" smiths...meaning accomplished competitors who do their own chambering and assembly. I check the F.I.S.S results religiously and I don't recall a novice competitor who did his own work making the top 20 in recent history. At that level of competition you better have a rifle(s) that shoots in the ones.

I think you missed my point. I am not siding with lazer or against you so please do not take it that way. My point is there are many shooters out there who have refined their reloading and shooting skills to what can be top level without competition. The same with gunsmiths there are many who can produce top level gear. Granted in a sport many fall into using one or two guys. Kind of follow the leader. My point is just because you never heard of John Doe of xx does not mean his stuff is not top notch.

 

[LHSmith]

My point is there are many shooters out there who have refined their reloading and shooting skills to what can be top level without competition.

Possibly, but not likely. Competition breeds excellence which comes from being driven by the desire to win. Not a whole lot of extraordinary effort necessary when one competes only against himself. The mere fact that you are associating yourself with other competetive shooters puts you in close contact with what components are working , what smiths are building winning rifles, what reamer / cartridge designs can be advantageous, or advice on how to handle tough conditions or mirage.

 

[Lazer]

Well it looks like Lh knows it all by the previous posts. No matter what anyone says its really not likly and he will disagree to some point. So can we just end this discussion w LH being the know it all winner. Seriously LH look back you disagreed w almost everything everyone has said.

 

[dmoran]

My point is there are many shooters out there who have refined their reloading and shooting skills to what can be top level without competition.

I disagree that there are "many shooters" who can. And will only agree to a very low percentage....
Have seen it over and over, at competitions, repeatedly play out where the new guy joining in has years of experience to reloading and shooting, but still falls short in the competition world until they gain further knowledge and competitive experience. And can't help but feel I was one of those people back when I first started competing.
The experienced competitor is the one to beat in the long run, not the experienced reloader/shooter/gunsmith who is more times then not, a novice getting in until they get there feet wet. Those type excel faster into the transition, then will the "green rookie", but they still have learning curves.
LHSmith wrote (above): "Competition breeds excellence" ..... I concur !.!.!

My 2-Cents and experience
Donovan

 

[LHSmith]

Seriously LH look back you disagreed w almost everything everyone has said.

Perhaps you have a reading comprehension problem. Fact is, I learned more in my 1st year of registered competition (2003) than in all my previous 36 years as a hobbiest reloader and target shooter who seldom missed shooting most weekends. Consider the dead horse beat.

 

[people]

Possibly, but not likely. Competition breeds excellence which comes from being driven by the desire to win. Not a whole lot of extraordinary effort necessary when one competes only against himself. The mere fact that you are associating yourself with other competetive shooters puts you in close contact with what components are working , what smiths are building winning rifles, what reamer / cartridge designs can be advantageous, or advice on how to handle tough conditions or mirage.

Ah you know you can use the internet to find info that will help you be a better shooter? I would think you do as you are here. Maybe you did not start using the web until after you started competing. It is not just competitors who experiment.

There are many guys and gals out there who want to shoot the smallest group they can it is not exclusive to match shooters.