3 or 5 shot groups?

[LHSmith]

To answer about wind flags, I only shoot early morn or late eve when conditions are perfect. You can't do load development in bad conditions.
(This is gonna get good!)

It appears someone has NO CLUE.
How does one know if conditions are "perfect" without some form of wind indicator? What is perfect conditions? FWIW a slight wiggle of just one windflag tail will open up a group....where on this earth will you find totally benign conditions for any length of time?
Competitors are predominately "holding off" based of feedback from the flags and what the mirage is telling you....often having a different POA to complete a group.
To me, perfect conditions are a steady often recurring crosswind ( most barrel/ load combinations actually have a preference......some like L>R while others shoot smaller in a R>L condition) which I have "tuned" for.....THAT is where I shoot my smallest groups (or best score).
Matches are not held in early AM nor late PM......why would I tune the load for conditions that have a low probability of showing up?
It's an entirely different ball game than the majority of members here are used to. The best book on learning how to shoot small is Tony Boyer's book.
Windflags are needed to shoot small, great windflags are mandatory to shoot very small, and to master them you have to learn to shoot both eyes open and maintain flag movement and target visuals simultaneously.......and react instantly.
This info is based on shortrange (100 -300 yds). Longrange BR seems to have the best success in "running" a target after confirming POI since a string of equi-distant windflags is impractical and not legal (I believe)

 

[butchlambert]

Mr. Smith, That is a great post!

 

[eric n]

I only fire one round the day before deer season. If it hits the paper plate, I call it good.

Seriously, much gratitutde to the many who have replied with your experience, wisdom, and ability. I am always trying to learn and you pros have helped me.

Merry Christmas.

Well said. You guys have answered some questions for me as well. Thank you!

 

[sgreen3]

Wow thanks fellas didn't expect so many responses in just a day . I think I may try an rethink my load development practice to just 3 shots. But one good point made I read if you shot more shots shouldn't the group size be bigger, theoretically at least?

 

[sgreen3]

Here are the first two 3-shot groups with fireformed brass from my new 30BR. I was just making some snug brass to send to the Harrells for a FL die, so I used 34.0gr H4198 and Berger 115FB bullets jammed. There is a 2-click scope adjustment between the two targets. Who thinks that I'm going to have to take another 494 shots to find a load that will shoot? :

(The shot on the target border is from boresighting.)

Id say that's a pretty darn accurate load, 494 remaining shots un-needed Id be very happy with that grouping 3 shots or not, lol

 

[Lazer]

Lh, check out the original post. This is more about load dev and judging accuracy of a rifle. Not what competitors do at competetions in the middle of the day.

 

[Lazer]

Sgreen very nice 3 shot group!

 

[LHSmith]

With 3 shot groups the harmonics can be so far off that 3 shots will actually go through the same hole, sometimes twice, but never for 20-30 shots in a row.

If you think it's all due to harmonics, Butch Lambert sells a great tuner.

 

[butchlambert]

Lh, check out the original post. This is more about load dev and judging accuracy of a rifle. Not what competitors do at competetions in the middle of the day.

You don't get Mr. Smith's post do you.

 

[LHSmith]

Lh, check out the original post. This is more about load dev and judging accuracy of a rifle. Not what competitors do at competetions in the middle of the day.

What are you daft? What is it you do not understand about C-O-N-D-I-T-I-O-N-S ?
Knowing how they affect the bullets flight is a key element in proving a loads accuracy.
Unless you shoot in a ballisticians shooting tunnel , every shot fired without windflags ( read by someone adept in their use) is in question and begs the question on the resultant group size.....did the wind push them into or out of group? Did mirage have an effect? In other words ....your data is invalid. If you want to still find that "perfect load" you will find it to be very fleeting BECAUSE it IMPOSSIBLE to control conditions at any range.
It might befuddle you to know that to shoot very small consistently, one must adjust ( we Benchresters call it "TUNE" the load based on temperature, and even humidity at matchtime . Some even have 3 different loads available to try for each target.
This is why I believe your on-line target competition is folly.....it is a "one-time" " best of" that is highly unlikely to be duplicated......proving NOTHING.

 

[Lazer]

If you don't like don't join it. No big deal. But at least have enough class not to belittle out loud.
As for not being able to duplicate the results, well I had 20 bullets left and loaded up for 4, 5 shot groups last Saturday, With that same load combination. I couldn't go to my normal gravel road so I had to resort to prone in a cornfield, any predictions on what happened as far as an average?...........

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

What is it you do not understand about C-O-N-D-I-T-I-O-N-S ?

Stop the madness!

 

[people]

If you want to still find that "perfect load" you will find it to be very fleeting BECAUSE it IMPOSSIBLE to control conditions at any range.

Not quite impossible just out of our reach. Then why make the weather do what you want when you can just build a structure to enclose your range. Then you are in control.

Just busting your chops but not impossible like you said.

 

[people]

Where there is a will there is a way.

 

[butchlambert]

Why try to control conditions when you shoot in varied conditions? Gene Beggs has a great shooting tunnel, but what works there does not make it work in the outside environment and conditions with even very little wind conditions. The top shooters do not test in tunnels or in no condition shooting.

 

[A j shooter]

Why try to control conditions when you shoot in varied conditions? Gene Beggs has a great shooting tunnel, but what works there does not make it work in the outside environment and conditions with even very little wind conditions. The top shooters do not test in tunnels or in no condition shooting.

thats right Butch Tony Boyer says the wind is your friend.
He also says your wasting your time shooting in calm conditions.
I believe him😜

 

[jimcasey01]

I am hesitant to post targets, because of the fall out that it causes, but I am making an exception here. Load testing at 200 meters with 6PPC, fired 12 rounds for seating depth, then 12 for powder weight. This 10-11-12 for powder weight. I don't believe it takes 500 rounds. I suspect that I am pretty close to my final load in 24 rounds. Saved myself 476 trigger pulls, bullets, and wear and tear on barrel. In time I will polish it, but not 500 rounds worth.

 

[butchlambert]

My opinion and mine only. If I'm say shooting a PPC or BR or other cartridge, I know pretty much what it needs to shoot. I start there and go up and down slightly with another barrel or rifle and I'm close. You are not going to shoot a comp. rifle and change a load by several grains or bullet size and need over 50 rounds to tune it.

 

[tc jones]

Do what! I ain't gonna shoot a 500 shot deal finding a good load. If it takes that long you might take up bowling.

That's a bit funny. I'm not even going to read the next 7 pages.

 

[Patch700]

Lol let's keep it going.... If my intuition is correct someone is about to spill the beans on coming up with a load that defies the law of gravity and physics. ...

I want some of that info lol.