.284 Win with new 195g Hybrid bullets

[ShootDots]

Well I took my Shehane out with the 195's again. This time with H1000... The groups were better >>> BUT I CAN NOT control the flyers! I had 1 group down there (300 yards) that you could have covered up with a nickle, however, the second shot flew out at the 2 O'clock position about 1.5" away! Whether it has been the IMR 7828 or H1000, there has not been 1 group that has not contained a flyer. I am done with the 195's. I am putting the other 4 boxes up for sale in the component section. Back to my trusty, rusty 180 Scenar "L's"!

 

[falconpilot]

Ben,

I loaded up some 180's this morning, and groups are alot better today...I'm not giving up yet on the 195's, but I plan on shooting the 180s at Nationals..

Jim

 

[ShootDots]

Ben,

I loaded up some 180's this morning, and groups are alot better today...I'm not giving up yet on the 195's, but I plan on shooting the 180s at Nationals..

Jim

Jim, IF I could have controlled the flyers, I would still be working with them. But with 2 powders and 15 / 5 shot groups later and NEVER a group without a flyer, I do not believe my barrel likes them. So, I am just wasting barrel life and spending the components for nothing..

 

[Kyle Schultz]

FWIW... I STILL believe you need to be driving these bullets with a magnum cartridge.

 

[falconpilot]

Kyle,

They shoot well at 2625fps, but I'm not gaining anything over the 180's at these numbers. They shoot pretty good again at 2910 fps, but this load is trashing my brass..

 

[kyreloader]

FWIW... I STILL believe you need to be driving these bullets with a magnum cartridge.

I got good precision with the 195s as you can read in the initial post on this thread in a straight .284 Win. Not sure why you would need to drive these bullets in a magnum cartridge.

Ben, thanks for your input on this thread. I still think you could be remiss for not trying either H4350 or H4831SC in your Shehane before chalking up your barrel to not liking these bullets. Neither H1000 nor 7828 is a known entity in the .284 Win with the majority of people shooting either H4350/4831SC almost unanimously. What is 15 more bullets in the grand scheme of things before you write off this barrel as not liking this bullet?

 

[falconpilot]

Kyle,

I tested both the 4831SC and H4350 but couldn't find anything worth considering. At what seating depth did you get your best results, and why worry with these if we can't shoot inside the 180's with them?

In my case, with the 7 Walker, the gun like the 180's running 2930-2940fps...that's 50.3 inches of drift, compared to the 195's 51.3 inches at 2700..

I want to like this bullets and want to shoot it. With the Walker, I can shoot it in the 2780-2800 range pretty easily...just need to find a load..

 

[ShootDots]

FWIW... I STILL believe you need to be driving these bullets with a magnum cartridge.

I got good precision with the 195s as you can read in the initial post on this thread in a straight .284 Win. Not sure why you would need to drive these bullets in a magnum cartridge.

Ben, thanks for your input on this thread. I still think you could be remiss for not trying either H4350 or H4831SC in your Shehane before chalking up your barrel to not liking these bullets. Neither H1000 nor 7828 is a known entity in the .284 Win with the majority of people shooting either H4350/4831SC almost unanimously. What is 15 more bullets in the grand scheme of things before you write off this barrel as not liking this bullet?

I doubt you can ever get the necessary velocity with the faster powders. In order to take full advantage of the 195's you need a minimum of 2750 f.p.s. or it becomes a wash with the 180's. In a Shehane, H4831SC or IMR 7828 reigns supreme down here. There are a number of shooters who do use H4350 (I do in my "straight" .284) with 180 Hybrids. But with the elongated bearing surface of both the 195's and the 180 Scenars, you would run pressures before you got to a reasonable velocity. If you tried to reach between 2750 and 2800 I think you would destroy your brass.. So I have been reluctant to even give them a shot. Although IF I could have stopped the flyers, I might have given them a bit of a run. But TOO many flyers. That tells me something in and of itself.. But T-Rust me, I do appreciate your care and help..

 

[Kyle Schultz]

Kyle,

I tested both the 4831SC and H4350 but couldn't find anything worth considering. At what seating depth did you get your best results, and why worry with these if we can't shoot inside the 180's with them?

In my case, with the 7 Walker, the gun like the 180's running 2930-2940fps...that's 50.3 inches of drift, compared to the 195's 51.3 inches at 2700..

I want to like this bullets and want to shoot it. With the Walker, I can shoot it in the 2780-2800 range pretty easily...just need to find a load..

Jim:

You've seen my initial 100Y results. I would post them here for everyone but I can't get past the 200kb file size limit.

By no means am I crowning the 195 as the new king. In fact, next time I shoot at Bayou Rifles, hopefully Dec 6, I'll be shooting the 180 Hybrids.

The 180s jumping 0.015" tuned at 2941 fps with 61.5g of H1000 in my 32" 8.5 tw 7-300WSM. I also tried H4831SC but did not like the way the gun "felt". Based on initial tests only, it appears I can drive the 195s to similar velocities with about 2 more grains of H1000. Same RELATIVE 0.015" jump. If so, the potential drift advantages of the 195 may become more evident. Testing and match results will determine this.

But my point in all of this is that, IMO, you don't have that option with a .284 or its improved versions. I think they are max'd out with the 180s in the low to mid 2900s. There is just not enough boiler capacity to safely fly the 195s at the same velocity. Still doesn't answer the question if the 195s will score as well as the 180 hybrids. That is to be determined.

Good luck!

 

[kyreloader]

Kyle,

I tested both the 4831SC and H4350 but couldn't find anything worth considering. At what seating depth did you get your best results, and why worry with these if we can't shoot inside the 180's with them?

In my case, with the 7 Walker, the gun like the 180's running 2930-2940fps...that's 50.3 inches of drift, compared to the 195's 51.3 inches at 2700..

I want to like this bullets and want to shoot it. With the Walker, I can shoot it in the 2780-2800 range pretty easily...just need to find a load..

Jim:

You've seen my initial 100Y results. I would post them here for everyone but I can't get past the 200kb file size limit.

By no means am I crowning the 195 as the new king. In fact, next time I shoot at Bayou Rifles, hopefully Dec 6, I'll be shooting the 180 Hybrids.

The 180s jumping 0.015" tuned at 2941 fps with 61.5g of H1000 in my 32" 8.5 tw 7-300WSM. I also tried H4831SC but did not like the way the gun "felt". Based on initial tests only, it appears I can drive the 195s to similar velocities with about 2 more grains of H1000. Same RELATIVE 0.015" jump. If so, the potential drift advantages of the 195 may become more evident. Testing and match results will determine this.

But my point in all of this is that, IMO, you don't have that option with a .284 or its improved versions. I think they are max'd out with the 180s in the low to mid 2900s. There is just not enough boiler capacity to safely fly the 195s at the same velocity. Still doesn't answer the question if the 195s will score as well as the 180 hybrids. That is to be determined.

Good luck!

JBM says the 195g Berger at 2700 fps from a .284 Win is still better in the wind than the 180g Hybrids at 2950 fps from a Shehane/Walker at 1000 yards. The BC difference is there, so you do not need to fly the two bullets to the same velocity.

The precision/accuracy, that is still to be determined.

 

[Kyle Schultz]

kyreloader,

With respect, I think you may be misapplying the data.

Relative drop and drift calculations at the same CONSTANT distance or crosswind velocity are not the issue. So what if the 195 drops 1/2 MOA or whatever less than the 180. If I'm shooting the 180, all I do is dial up the elevation and the bullets impact exactly the same. Same thing with windage. Let's say, the wind drops from a full value 10 mph to 2 mph, and I recognize it, all I do is adjust my hold and the bullets impact at the same spot.

What you're hoping for is that the greater mass and higher retained velocity downrange of the 195 will mitigate the incremental drift caused by small UNRECOGNIZED changes in wind velocity and/or direction that you do not compensate for. As Jim correctly pointed out earlier in this thread, the drift differences are actually quite small. Run the JBM calculations for a 2 mph crosswind for both bullets. For the numbers I ran, the 180 at 2950 fps will drift 5.35" for each 1 mph of crosswind. Even at 2950 fps the 195 will drift 4.62" for each 1 mph of crosswind.

So for a 2mph crosswind, the 180 will drift 10.7" and the 195 will drift 9.2". Yeah, the 1.5" smaller drift is nice, but if I don't recognize and don't adjust for even a 2 mph change in crosswind, I'm drifting a minimum of 9". Doesn't really help me that I drafted 1.5" less. I've still dropped the points.

 

[Lbart]

Kyle76092,
You wrote -“So for a 2 mph crosswind, the 180 will drift 10.7" and the 195 will drift 9.2". Yeah, the 1.5" smaller drift is nice, but if I don't recognize and don't adjust for even a 2 mph change in crosswind, I'm drifting a minimum of 9". Doesn't really help me that I drafted 1.5" less. I've still dropped the points.”

Take a look at the target. Using your figures, if you have a dead center, pin wheel X and don’t see the 2 mph change the 180 will be in the 8 ring and the 195 will be a 9. Many matches have been lost by 1 point. I lose most of my matches because of the changes I don’t catch, not the ones I do. Any help I can get is appreciated. An inch and a half is a lot.

 

[falconpilot]

Larry,

Since you been shooting these 195 for a while now, what advise could you give regarding making these shoot? Jumping? Jamming? etc

Jim

 

[Kyle Schultz]

Kyle76092,
You wrote -“So for a 2 mph crosswind, the 180 will drift 10.7" and the 195 will drift 9.2". Yeah, the 1.5" smaller drift is nice, but if I don't recognize and don't adjust for even a 2 mph change in crosswind, I'm drifting a minimum of 9". Doesn't really help me that I drafted 1.5" less. I've still dropped the points.”

Take a look at the target. Using your figures, if you have a dead center, pin wheel X and don’t see the 2 mph change the 180 will be in the 8 ring and the 195 will be a 9. Many matches have been lost by 1 point. I lose most of my matches because of the changes I don’t catch, not the ones I do. Any help I can get is appreciated. An inch and a half is a lot.

Agree 100%. And that's why I will continue to test them.

 

[Lbart]

Jim,
I have done little testing with the 195's. I shot a couple hundred or so. I used my 7-270 WSM and just dropped my H-4831sc load 2-3 grains and seated them the same as my 180's. My throat is 0.200" and is a bit unusual in that the bullets seem to ride on the throat which still has remnants of the lands in it. So I guess you could say the bullets are jammed since you can still see very light marks on them 0.100” long.

All the loads I shot grouped quite well both at 100 and 1,000 yards. The barrel was a Bartlein 1-9 and I started testing with 780+ rounds on it. Altitude was 4,000 feet. Temps in the 70’s-80’s. One day at 1k I had a 4.729" average for 30 shots and an ES average of 5.865". Velocities ran from 2836 - 2884 fps with the ES in the single digits. Many of the other groups I fired at 1k had elevations in the 2”-3” range and I am not a very good shot off the bench. I was impressed with them.

 

[falconpilot]

Larry,

Thanks for the info. i'm going to keep trying..

Jim

 

[FilippoMo]

Why not trying Retumbo it gives better velocity pressure ratio than H 1000 in many calibers,
Filippo

 

[Quickoz]

Anyone tried these 195gr in a SAUM?

 

[falconpilot]

Retumbo is to slow..can't get enough in case..H1000 is compressed load.

 

[Endyo]

Any updates on testing? The jury still seemed to be out when postings stopped.