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284 win chamber

Hi


i have a question for you about standard or match chamber. I am going to have my smith chamber a krieger barrel in 284 win for a barnard single shot, he has the standad reamer I think with the .322 neck. I am going to use 6,5x284 lapua brass and neck it up to 7mm, people tell me tha this will give me loaded round wich is about .3125.

So my questin is, is there to much clearence and would I be better of ordering a reamer for my needs with .317 neck. Would I see much accuracy diffrence if I would have a custom reamer from PT&G?
 
If using Lapua brass, the base diameter is larger on the Lapua vs Winchester. The smiths reamer may be for Winchester brass so ask him about that. I just had a reamer reground to 284 Shehane, and used .004" clearance in the neck diameter. I`m betting your smiths reamer is for Winny brass, so a new reamer is going to be needed. If a no turn, I`d opt for a .316 neck diameter. Throating must be considered, I went with a .250" freebore to shoot 180 class bullets, many choose .220". I never liked the bullets bearing surface to be the full neck length. I like room at the neck/shoulder.
 
If you are going to order a reamer (and you should) be sure to tell Kiff that it's for the 6.5x284 Lapua brass as there is a difference, like tclaunch mentioned..
The smiths reamer @ .322 will give you way more clearance than is needed for good case life..
 
My loaded .284 rounds with Lapua no neck turn brass is .3125. I use a .309 neck sizing bushing. My chambers are cut .3165 in the neck.
I would go no larger than .317.
Seating depth is critical, the rear of the bearing surface should not be behind the neck shoulder juncture.
Nat
 
Thanks for all the good advice, I will order the reamer from PT&G.

So Nat I would be set with .308, .309 and .310 neck bushing when using lapua with no neck turn?
Do you think there is any advantage to the redding competition neck sizing die vs the standard redding S bushing die. I will be using the competition seating die but I am not sure if the other one is worth the extra cost.

I am planing on using the 162 gr amax as my go to bullet and maybe the 168 gr berger as well. I have heard that the amax can cause a lot of meat damage but if you keep them in the neck or the lungs that should not be a problem. I will just see which of them shoots better for me. I am planing on using vv N560 Do any of you have any experience with N560 and 162 gr amax or 168 gr berger, what velocity should I be aiming at with a 27" barrel?
 
It is my suggestion to buy a Redding FL sizing die for the .284 not a S type bushing die. Get a a Redding tapered 7mm expander and exchange it for the original ball expander. Lube inside and out the 6.5 X .284 Lapua Brass.
This will help prevent the dreaded donuts.
Nat
 
Thanks again Nat you and the others have bin a big help.

I was going to buy the Sinclair Generation II Expander Dies with 7mm Expander Mandrel and the Redding Type S Match Neck Die Set.

But you think it would be better for me to have the Redding Type S Match Full Length Die Set?

don't you normally get better accuracy by only neck sizing a fire formed case? Or maybe that only applies in sloppy chambers like you could get in a factory rifle.

Why do you recommend full sizing the .284 win?
 
No one seems to be addressing a key issue here: You cannot neck up Lapua 6.5 x 284 brass to 284 Win without addressing the fact that you are going to have a big bulge at the base of the neck (since Lapua 6.5 x 284 brass has shoulder metal that is thicker that the neck metal, and when you neck it up to 284 Win, you pull part of the shoulder of the case up into the neck area). I would only use Lapua brass for that if it is neck turned (i.e. just like you must do that making 30BR brass from 6BR brass, or making 260 Rem brass from Lapua 243 Win brass, etc.).

In my opinion, you cannot do a no neck turn 284 Win set up with Lapua brass, unless you want to ignore a brass issue that will always be there to bite your accuracy and consistency.

Robert Whitley
 
Robert, I have used the Sinclair Expander to neck up the Lapua brass for my 284 Shehane with a no neck turn chamber. I cannot measure or see any signs of a bulge at the base of the neck where it joins the shoulder. So far I have necked up 300 Lapua cases without any problems using a little Imperial Sizing Wax inside the neck prior to expanding. I have friends who also neck Lapua brass to 7mm without any problems.

As for accuracy, my no neck turn chamber and Lapua brass has won its share of high quality competitions and can put bullet hole thru bullet hole at 100 metres. The only problem I experience with the Lapua brass is the primer pockets getting loose when you push beyond 2900fps with 180gr VLDs. It seems 2940fps is as hard as I can push the brass without the primer pockets loosening excessively!

Ian
 
My PT&G reamer is sized for Winchester brass with .220" freebore, 1° throat and Ø.313" neck. This allows Berger Hybrids to touch at 3.275" OAL and a light neck turn to .0125" wall for .004" diametral clearance. Be aware that the Hybrids seat .050" or more further out than other bullets.
 
I have a Sinclair Expander die and a expander for evey caliber from 22 to 338 cant say enought good things about this combination.

Using the sinclair expander and the FL sizing die you should not get any donuts.
Nat Lambeth
 
Rustystud said:
. . .

Using the sinclair expander and the FL sizing die you should not get any donuts.
Nat Lambeth

I doubt that since the shoulder metal of the 6.5x284 Lapua brass is significantly thicker than the neck metal and when you neck it up to 284 Win (regardless of what type of expander you use - and I use the Sinclair one too) you get a portion of brass at the base of the neck of the 284 that is significantly thicker than the rest of the neck (because a part of the shoulder of the 6.5x284 brass becomes the neck metal of the 284 Win). Take a cutoff wheel and slice a case in half and take a look if you are doubting. Lapua brass is all made that way no matter what cartridge is involved (i.e. shoulder metal thicker than the neck metal) and it's o.k. for a neck down but not for necking up without neck turning.

If people wish to dismiss what I am saying or ignore it that's up to them but it still does not change the truth of it.

Robert Whitley
 
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I was reading about Charles Ballard gun and loading methods: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek088.html

He seams to agree with Nat Lambeth suggestion and uses expander and the redding S FL sizing die, he does not mention that he turns the necks so I assume he does not.
If a professional gunsmith and a world record holder both recommend the same loading procedure than I don't really see the problem with doing as they say. They have far more skill and experience than I have.
Maybe it works because the chamber reamer is made for necked up 6.5x284 lapua brass?
 
katur83 said:
Maybe it works because the chamber reamer is made for necked up 6.5x284 lapua brass?

Very good point, maybe Robert could consider and answer this question?
I know when I ordered my no-neck turn reamer from Dave (PT&G) I made it clear I was using the Lapua brass and necking it up to 7mm.

Ian
 
As to the last postings by katur83 and ThunderDownUnder I would just say this (with my respect to both of you):

1. For me, part of accuracy is about pinning down, and removing from the equation, issues that can sabotage accuracy. Donuts are an issue - well known to be a potential saboteur to accuracy.

2. One thing is for sure, the chamber design cannot make a donut in brass disappear. If you ask me could I design a reamer that might help to mitigate the effects of a brass donut, I would say "yes", but could I guarantee that it would not permit the donut to present an accuracy problem at some point on some shot, I would say "no". The one thing I know with the 284 Win donuts based on necked up Lapua 6.5x284 brass is that they are not consistent case to case, with some being rather small, but some being very thick and heavy, and therein lies part of the problem for consistency. If you have an expander ball on your resize die, it will slip through that area on some cases with little back pressure, but on others there will be a great deal of back pressure. When you neck turn, on some cases not a lot of brass is removed in that area, but on others a whole lot of brass comes off in that area.

3. Assumptions or speculations are just that, they may be true or they may be false. I will not speculate what Dave Kiff made up for you (Ian), or make assumptions whether Charles Ballard neck turns, neck reams, does nothing or has a chamber that somewhat works around the donut. It seems to me if no one specifically discussed this donut issue when a reamer was ordered then we are all making assumptions or speculations that may not be quite correct (i.e. that the reamer somehow made provisions to minimize to potential effects of the brass donut).

4. One way to try to mitigate that issue in a chamber design would be to stick a big radius at the junction of the neck and shoulder of the chamber (like a .125" radius), but then you just may have taken one step forward to go two backward, since re-size dies (Redding dies for one) do not have a radius at the junction of the neck and shoulder and what you then get is the brass gets blown out there when fired, only to be crimped way back in when re-sized, and concentricity of the loaded round can suffer with such a set up. It's the total package from my perspective, everything working together to deliver optimum results - the brass, the chamber design, the dies used, etc..

Robert Whitley
 
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Robert, you do make a good point. If neck turning helps with getting a good brass with out donuts than why not do it. I am not a high volume shooter, I will maybe shoot about 500 shots from this rifle in one year so 100-200 pieces of brass will last me for a while.

But than I come to the problem that made me want a no turn neck chamber to begin with. I never neck turn and am afraid I would make a good brass worse. What is a good tool to use for neck turning? Is this something you could recommend: http://www.sinclairintl.com/.aspx/pid=35270/Product/Sinclair_NT_1500_Neck_Turning_Tool_Kit

Good thing I have not finalized my reamer order from PT&G.

Is there any potential disadvantages to neck turning other than the work and the chance you would screw it up :)
 
I do not have a 284 Winchester so I haven't necked any 6.5-284 brass up. This is a .020 movement. This is generally enough to form a donut but maybe not always.

I have necked up many .243 cases (Lapua) to .260 Remington. This is a .021 jump and I always have donuts when I do this. It is easier to first, neck turn 308 Lapua brass down and then size it down. This puts a small portion of the original neck into the new shoulder but this has not presented a problem.

Typically, I use a hand crank type neck turner on the 308 and then make a skim cut with my K&M once it is .264.

Even if your chamber is designed to help with the donut, full length resizing is going to push that neck back down and you will likely feel this donut if you load a bullet deep enough to contact it. Whether it hurts your accuracy or not, Nobody can say.

Just make sure you have the base diameter and neck correct. My base is .501. You can get by with less but I wanted to make sure that my dies were going to make my brass chamber easy. Kiff told me that .500 is fine too. He has ground a lot of 284 and 6.5284 reamers. He knows what works with the brass. He told me that some of the die manufacturers are not making their dies very uniform and this can be frustrating.

I use a K&M expander mandrel, a body die and a bushing die to keep my bullet runnout to less than .001. You can also have your full length die lapped in the neck to ideal diameter. This will allow you to resize without the expander ball- worse thing there is to bullet runnout.

Hope we have been of help
 
The K&M Donut Cutter reamer helps in this area but it's only a temp fix (needs to be maintained)you can also turn into the NK/SH junction with a beveled cutter(CAREFULLY). RCW3 has it straight IMHO and this is the issue with all NECK UP scenerios.
 
katur83 said:
Thanks for all the good advice, I will order the reamer from PT&G.

So Nat I would be set with .308, .309 and .310 neck bushing when using lapua with no neck turn?
Do you think there is any advantage to the redding competition neck sizing die vs the standard redding S bushing die. I will be using the competition seating die but I am not sure if the other one is worth the extra cost.

I am planing on using the 162 gr amax as my go to bullet and maybe the 168 gr berger as well. I have heard that the amax can cause a lot of meat damage but if you keep them in the neck or the lungs that should not be a problem. I will just see which of them shoots better for me. I am planing on using vv N560 Do any of you have any experience with N560 and 162 gr amax or 168 gr berger, what velocity should I be aiming at with a 27" barrel?

You should be able to hit about 3050 fps. with the 162 A-Max and N560 out of a 27" barrel.
 
Erik Cortina said:
You should be able to hit about 3050 fps. with the 162 A-Max and N560 out of a 27" barrel.

Although i don't have a 284 with a 27" barrel, I find this hard to believe. I am lucky to get that out of a 7WSM.

Quickload shows that at 100% filling density you can achieve a whopping 52,000 PSI and 2792 fps. If you use a compressed load of 105% you can achieve 60,800 PSI and 2937 FPS. I can't see getting more powder in the case than this!

I am maxing out a 7WSM with a 26" barrel at about 3030 fps

Quickload show that with 100% loading density on the 7WSM I can achieve 3110 fps @64,000 PSI. This suggests to me that Quickload is being optimistic with VVN560 data compared to what I have seen.

I can't see getting that 284 over 2950 myself.
 

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