.284 vs 6BR vs .300 WSM Vertical @ 1000yd

[KT]

OKay I came across a article today that pertains to this topic.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/08/tony-boyer-shares-secrets-in-ps-interview-read-it/

Mr Boyer says vertical dispersion is not so much load-related as it is related to how the rifle is setup. I realize Mr Boyer is a short-range man but one of the best at that so Id say any and all advice from him should not be taken lightly. Obviously high ES/SD WILL cause high vertical dispersion but what seems to be the consensus from competitive F-Class shooters as the best way to set the rifle up for minimal vertical??

If you look at modern F-Open and F-TR rifles, they are all pretty much long(30"+) barreled long forend stocked rifles. Common sense(something I lack) would tell me this creates a situation where the long forend will bounce and flex with each shot with that long, heavy barrel leveraging down on it. We all know the mantra that rigidity/flexibility has nothing to do with accuracy as long as its repeatable. However, I would like yall to take a look at what Mr Speedy Gonzales came up with as an experiment for trying to minimize vertical outside of load development:

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?84233-New-stuff-we-are-playing-with-in-the-F-Class-game

To my eyes it looks largely to be a barrel-block with 2 rings on the barrel over a single base. It is his prediction that this will isolate the barrel from the bouncing effect of the stock`s forend. That was a pretty old post though. I was wondering if anyone knows if there has ever been any progress on this isolated block experiment? Looks promising in my opinion...

[br]
Most F-Open shooters with a well-designed stock and balanced setup do not have a problem holding short range vertical. At 1000 yards, it is ES that will kill you. Mr. Boyer is an exceptional BR shooter, apparently the best, but what applies to his discipline does not necessarily apply to another.

(Hello Steve...I've got a private question for you...mind giving up your telephone number to me?? Dan Biggs)

Danny,
Could these question come from shooting Ryan Eastman's gun at Oak Ridge. You need to go ahead and build one, so you can join, Steve, Ryan, and me.

Keith Trapp

 

[johara1]

Ray, Don't believe for one minute that just because a big heavy bullet it will keep you on the paper……… Reading the condition does….. jim

 

[Raythemanroe]

Ray, Don't believe for one minute that just because a big heavy bullet it will keep you on the paper……… Reading the condition does….. jim

I either have a lot of wind reading skills to be gained or Williaimsport is horrible for conditions changing.. Little 1k shooting I have done in Big Flats, NY the wind is pretty consistent and gave me higher expectations..Regardless I have seen every caliber being pushed hard this year. I like watching in the pits to see who's shooting style benefits most or how much a wind change pushes you.. The guys that have the setup that allows you to shoot fast seem to be benefiting the most..As far as vertical, 2" is record territory if the gods allow the rest..


Ray

 

[johara1]

Ray, i been there ………. ……. jim

 

[dragman]

We've all been there, just remember speed may shine hear and there, but consistent wins over the long haul. 300 wsm can be pushed over 3000 fps with 210's but most who are winning usually keep them around 2850 fps.
I always push the limits and have been successful but it costs in barrels and a lot of extra range time.

 

[johara1]

I know about speed…… and i was talking about records……. …….. jim

 

[dragman]

I know you do Jim, some folks (me at times) think speed has it's benefits but I have just never seen it have the staying power over the long haul.

 

[johara1]

I don't even go 3000 with a Dasher, I can go a lot faster but when i slowed down, it did better. …… Aggs. tell the story……. jim

 

[jbhotrod]

Mr O Hara, what would you say your Dasher does for vertical at 1000yd on a consistent basis? Because as to the results, it seems at Williamsport, regardless of chambering, 3-5" is usually a winning group if conditions allow it. Theres some relays where you can tell the wind got over on everybody though obviously...

 

[jbhotrod]

OKay I came across a article today that pertains to this topic.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/08/tony-boyer-shares-secrets-in-ps-interview-read-it/

Mr Boyer says vertical dispersion is not so much load-related as it is related to how the rifle is setup. I realize Mr Boyer is a short-range man but one of the best at that so Id say any and all advice from him should not be taken lightly. Obviously high ES/SD WILL cause high vertical dispersion but what seems to be the consensus from competitive F-Class shooters as the best way to set the rifle up for minimal vertical??

If you look at modern F-Open and F-TR rifles, they are all pretty much long(30"+) barreled long forend stocked rifles. Common sense(something I lack) would tell me this creates a situation where the long forend will bounce and flex with each shot with that long, heavy barrel leveraging down on it. We all know the mantra that rigidity/flexibility has nothing to do with accuracy as long as its repeatable. However, I would like yall to take a look at what Mr Speedy Gonzales came up with as an experiment for trying to minimize vertical outside of load development:

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?84233-New-stuff-we-are-playing-with-in-the-F-Class-game

To my eyes it looks largely to be a barrel-block with 2 rings on the barrel over a single base. It is his prediction that this will isolate the barrel from the bouncing effect of the stock`s forend. That was a pretty old post though. I was wondering if anyone knows if there has ever been any progress on this isolated block experiment? Looks promising in my opinion...

[br]
Most F-Open shooters with a well-designed stock and balanced setup do not have a problem holding short range vertical. At 1000 yards, it is ES that will kill you. Mr. Boyer is an exceptional BR shooter, apparently the best, but what applies to his discipline does not necessarily apply to another.

So Mr Blair, with that said, would you say in your experience a Dasher will hold any better extreme spreads than a properly setup/loaded .284?

 

[Steve Blair]

So Mr Blair, with that said, would you say in your experience a Dasher will hold any better extreme spreads than a properly setup/loaded .284?

[br]
Yes, it is likely that a properly prepared and tuned Dasher will, on aggregate, produce better ES than larger cartridges, including .284. That is not the whole story. Wind effects change bullet trajectories, both horizontally and vertically. The higher B.C. bullets in calibers 7mm and .30 will resist wind effects better than 6mm bullets. [br]
We shot our annual Mid Range Regional this weekend and experienced switching 10-15 mph headwinds with gusts to ~25 mph. In those conditions, all else being equal, a higher B.C. bullet has an advantage.

 

[jbhotrod]

So Mr Blair, with that said, would you say in your experience a Dasher will hold any better extreme spreads than a properly setup/loaded .284?

[br]
Yes, it is likely that a properly prepared and tuned Dasher will, on aggregate, produce better ES than larger cartridges, including .284. That is not the whole story. Wind effects change bullet trajectories, both horizontally and vertically. The higher B.C. bullets in calibers 7mm and .30 will resist wind effects better than 6mm bullets. [br]
We shot our annual Mid Range Regional this weekend and experienced switching 10-15 mph headwinds with gusts to ~25 mph. In those conditions, all else being equal, a higher B.C. bullet has an advantage.

What do you shoot? And what type of vertical do your loads shoot at 1Kyd?

Thank you sir.
Blake.

 

[Steve Blair]

What do you shoot? And what type of vertical do your loads shoot at 1Kyd?

Thank you sir.
Blake.

[br]
In Long Range F-Open, I shoot either a .284 Shehane with 180 Hybrids or a .300 WSM with 230 Hybrids. Both hold vertical sufficient to shoot high X-count cleans at 1000.

 

[jbhotrod]

What do you shoot? And what type of vertical do your loads shoot at 1Kyd?

Thank you sir.
Blake.

[br]
In Long Range F-Open, I shoot either a .284 Shehane with 180 Hybrids or a .300 WSM with 230 Hybrids. Both hold vertical sufficient to shoot high X-count cleans at 1000.

You have a 6x47L too right? From what Ive seen those pretty much shoot right with a Dasher in good conditions and as far as consistent velocity.

With that said though, given that it mostly seems to "work" in basically sizing up the 6BR design into the 6x47L/6.5x47L, I often wonder why people dont try to do the same thing with .308 Palma small primer brass. Ive read of many Palma shooters loving the new SR primer brass and it seems to ignite fine even with the big capacity, why hasnt anyone done a .260 Rem/.260AI or similar using that brass? I would think it should improve accuracy some and even if it doesnt then one will still get longer brass life or higher pressure ability.. basically equal loads to a 6.5-284 with less powder and potentially better accuracy.

 

[AusFclass]

They have. 6.5 SLR with palma brass

What do you shoot? And what type of vertical do your loads shoot at 1Kyd?

Thank you sir.
Blake.

[br]
In Long Range F-Open, I shoot either a .284 Shehane with 180 Hybrids or a .300 WSM with 230 Hybrids. Both hold vertical sufficient to shoot high X-count cleans at 1000.

You have a 6x47L too right? From what Ive seen those pretty much shoot right with a Dasher in good conditions and as far as consistent velocity.

With that said though, given that it mostly seems to "work" in basically sizing up the 6BR design into the 6x47L/6.5x47L, I often wonder why people dont try to do the same thing with .308 Palma small primer brass. Ive read of many Palma shooters loving the new SR primer brass and it seems to ignite fine even with the big capacity, why hasnt anyone done a .260 Rem/.260AI or similar using that brass? I would think it should improve accuracy some and even if it doesnt then one will still get longer brass life or higher pressure ability.. basically equal loads to a 6.5-284 with less powder and potentially better accuracy.

 

[Steve Blair]

No, I don't have a 6X47L. I have a 6SLR and a 6BR. The reason why Lapua Palma brass is less used for forming is the notoriously thick Lapua case shoulders. They are not conducive to much forming. Not that it cannot be done, just more difficult than Winchester or Remington brass. Even though those two domestic brands are not a quality equal to Lapua (or Norma), they are half the price. That dovetails nicely with the 50% cull rate I typically see when match prepping them. [br]
Your thought is well taken, however. I would like to see the following cases available with small primers and flash holes. I think all would benefit. [br]
.223 Remington (small flash hole)
.243 Winchester
.22-250 Remington