.284 vs 6BR vs .300 WSM Vertical @ 1000yd

[jbhotrod]

Hi yall, I just wanted to get yalls experiences on these three chamberings` vertical dispersion at 1000yd.

I was reading Jason Baney`s article on his ladder test load development at 1000yd with a 6BR. In it he mentioned his most accurate load(s) exhibited less than 2in of vertical, with a few groups having less than 1in of vertical at 1000yd; mind you this is for 3-shot groups. Still, this is outstanding vertical for 1000yd.

So I wanted to ask, how much vertical do the best .284/7SAUM/7WSM and .300 WSM loads have over a course of 5 and 10-shot groups at 1000yd?
Same thing for the 6: how much vertical do the best 6BR/BRX/BRDX/BRBS/Dasher loads have over a course of 5 and 10-shot groups at 1000yd?

Also, is it possible to load a .284 or .300 WSM or other popular large primer/large capacity cartridge to have virtually the same vertical dispersion as the 6BR over 10-shots at 1000yd?


Thanks so much yall.
Blake.

 

[ShootDots]

I would bet a tidy sum that ALL of those cartridges, with the "right rifle", a "hummer" barrel, the correct load(s) and an excellent marksman at long range>> all are capable of the level of accuracy your are alluding to. The ONLY "fly in the ointment" as it were, might be R-E-C-O-I-L and T-O-R-Q-U-E>>> both of which can and may very well, keep a "theoretically" capable rifle from performing up to that standard. Given a heavy enough rifle ( like an unlimited "heavy rifle" in BR) that would minimize, if not eliminate, both excessive recoil and torque in heavy "magnum" calibers, would allow that level of accuracy.

 

[PRECISIONWELDING01]

Ask about his horizontal

 

[Joe Salt]

jbhotrod like shootDots said the right rifle in each one of those cal. will shoot that tight but the condition play a big part of the equation. The HG.world record if my memory is correct is a vertical group for ten shots and that was 2.875" I've done Ladder tests with 3 shots that had 1/2" of vertical but it wasn't the group I wanted, the wind made it about 8" wide. But with a hotter load they stayed in a 2" knot. The ladder test will help but you still have to tweak it from there. You also have to know what the ladder test is telling you.

Joe Salt

 

[Raptor]

I think they are all capable. However doing it on a regular basis is another story. I have a 5 shot group at 1000yds with my 284 that is 2"s or under for vertical and I have a 3 shot group that is like 1.5" but there is no way I can do it on any given day.

Like one of the guys said, recoil may be a factor with the bigger rifles and also you need to not just look at the vertical but also the horizontal. There are no free lunches!!!

 

[KT]

jbhotrod,

I own a 284, 6.5x47, 300wsm, 6mm dasher. These are all extremely accurate rounds. The biggest difference between the 6mm and the 7's ,300 is recoil and gun handling.

With the 6mm's you really don't have to do anything with the rifle but pull the trigger. My 300 I have a mental checklist, ie (correct shoulder pressure, cheek pressure, not to much hand pressure and so on). There is no free recoil with the 300. Anytime you have more contact with the gun brings in human error. I'm not sure what discipline you are shooting but I'm an F-class guy so I lay prone over the gun.

This is me, but I think if I can hold 5 inchs of vertical over 10 shots with my 300wsm I'm doing very well.( this is realistic) Yes you will have those few groups that are way better, but I don't think it can be done consistantly. Keep in mind this is F-class. You can't fire the shots as fast as you can in benchrest.

Simple answer: Yes those other rounds are just as accurate, gun handinling and recoil bring in other vertical problems. But the bigger rounds and bullets beat the wind alot better.

KT

 

[jbhotrod]

I would bet a tidy sum that ALL of those cartridges, with the "right rifle", a "hummer" barrel, the correct load(s) and an excellent marksman at long range>> all are capable of the level of accuracy your are alluding to. The ONLY "fly in the ointment" as it were, might be R-E-C-O-I-L and T-O-R-Q-U-E>>> both of which can and may very well, keep a "theoretically" capable rifle from performing up to that standard. Given a heavy enough rifle ( like an unlimited "heavy rifle" in BR) that would minimize, if not eliminate, both excessive recoil and torque in heavy "magnum" calibers, would allow that level of accuracy.

Thanks for the replies yall.

Shootdots, I know you have a Shehane(seen your load threads and theyre much appreciated) and saw you mention you also had a 6.5x47 and one of the 6BR flavors I believe. Have you settled on a load for the Shehane yet? If so, what kinda vertical/groups will it put down on average at 1000yd?

Thanks again.

 

[dragman]

Just my 0.02 cents all those listed above with the proper load and the right jerk behind the trigger can shoot better vertical @ 1000 than the conditions would ever allow over any amount of shots especially 5 or more.
My 3 favorite cartridges for the 1000 yard game are
1. 300WSM
2. .284
3. 7SAUM
IMHO they are listed in the order of how easy they typically are to get too shoot well too.

 

[Scott Harris]

I think you need to consider wind effects when discussing vertical. When it's windy, the bullets that buck the wind best will show the tightest vertical. Time and again I see shooters bring their laser-like 6 dasher/brx to the 1K line and they do very well in calm conditions. But, when the wind blows they have more vertical than the big 7mms and 30 cals.

 

[ShootDots]

I would bet a tidy sum that ALL of those cartridges, with the "right rifle", a "hummer" barrel, the correct load(s) and an excellent marksman at long range>> all are capable of the level of accuracy your are alluding to. The ONLY "fly in the ointment" as it were, might be R-E-C-O-I-L and T-O-R-Q-U-E>>> both of which can and may very well, keep a "theoretically" capable rifle from performing up to that standard. Given a heavy enough rifle ( like an unlimited "heavy rifle" in BR) that would minimize, if not eliminate, both excessive recoil and torque in heavy "magnum" calibers, would allow that level of accuracy.

Thanks for the replies yall.

Shootdots, I know you have a Shehane(seen your load threads and theyre much appreciated) and saw you mention you also had a 6.5x47 and one of the 6BR flavors I believe. Have you settled on a load for the Shehane yet? If so, what kinda vertical/groups will it put down on average at 1000yd?

Thanks again.

I had GREAT groups at 300 yards with 2 loads. However, I had terrible vertical at 1000 yards. I tried everything to get rid of the vertical. Finally, I found that 1K neck tension took away the vertical, or so I thought. I was getting 5 shot groups of "about" 4.5 inches at 1000 yards. If I shot 10 shot groups, I would invariably get a "flyer" vertically. It was not much. Groups opened to about 7 inches with 1 vertical shot. I went to a 1000 yard match and we were shooting our "summer schedule" of 15 shots for score. Of the 45 shots for score, I had 3 shots that were vertical and went into the 9 ring. CONSIDERABLY better than 2K neck tension. I bought a .311 bushing and we shall see if that gets rid of the little vertical there is. I believe it will. Ironically the loads for IMR 7828 and H4831 are identical. "They" are 56.8grs each with Fed 210GM's with Berger 180Hybrids set 23K off the lands.

My 6Dasher and my 6.5 x 47 BOTH shoot "waterline" with boring consistency at 1000 yards. Periodically you might get a wind that causes vertical. But under steady wind conditions they are incredible.. But my horizontal with those can and will be "troubling" when the wind is very switchy..

 

[AusFclass]

jbhotrod,

I own a 284, 6.5x47, 300wsm, 6mm dasher. These are all extremely accurate rounds. The biggest difference between the 6mm and the 7's ,300 is recoil and gun handling.

With the 6mm's you really don't have to do anything with the rifle but pull the trigger. My 300 I have a mental checklist, ie (correct shoulder pressure, cheek pressure, not to much hand pressure and so on). There is no free recoil with the 300. Anytime you have more contact with the gun brings in human error. I'm not sure what discipline you are shooting but I'm an F-class guy so I lay prone over the gun.

This is me, but I think if I can hold 5 inchs of vertical over 10 shots with my 300wsm I'm doing very well.( this is realistic) Yes you will have those few groups that are way better, but I don't think it can be done consistantly. Keep in mind this is F-class. You can't fire the shots as fast as you can in benchrest.

Simple answer: Yes those other rounds are just as accurate, gun handinling and recoil bring in other vertical problems. But the bigger rounds and bullets beat the wind alot better.

KT

+1 hit the nail on the head with those comments!

 

[dkhunt14]

I can pretty regularly hold 5 inches or less vertical with the 6 Dasher and 300WSM. Now this Benchrest. Sometimes the head tailwinds or morning thermals will open it up a bit. Matt

 

[thomasholbrook43]

Well , As the other say. There are the favorites 6 dasher BRX and many others. I shoot a 7mm and a 6mm also. It all comes down to load developement and the shooter with a hummer barrel. My most accurate rifle is a 6x47L. On a calm day as the others say it will shoot bug holes . It has shot three shot groups a 1000 as small a 1". So pick out one of the cases and pray you get one of the hummer barrels.Then spend at lot of time behind the trigger. Happy shooting

 

[jbhotrod]

OKay I came across a article today that pertains to this topic.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/08/tony-boyer-shares-secrets-in-ps-interview-read-it/

Mr Boyer says vertical dispersion is not so much load-related as it is related to how the rifle is setup. I realize Mr Boyer is a short-range man but one of the best at that so Id say any and all advice from him should not be taken lightly. Obviously high ES/SD WILL cause high vertical dispersion but what seems to be the consensus from competitive F-Class shooters as the best way to set the rifle up for minimal vertical??

If you look at modern F-Open and F-TR rifles, they are all pretty much long(30"+) barreled long forend stocked rifles. Common sense(something I lack) would tell me this creates a situation where the long forend will bounce and flex with each shot with that long, heavy barrel leveraging down on it. We all know the mantra that rigidity/flexibility has nothing to do with accuracy as long as its repeatable. However, I would like yall to take a look at what Mr Speedy Gonzales came up with as an experiment for trying to minimize vertical outside of load development:

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?84233-New-stuff-we-are-playing-with-in-the-F-Class-game

To my eyes it looks largely to be a barrel-block with 2 rings on the barrel over a single base. It is his prediction that this will isolate the barrel from the bouncing effect of the stock`s forend. That was a pretty old post though. I was wondering if anyone knows if there has ever been any progress on this isolated block experiment? Looks promising in my opinion...

 

[Steve Blair]

OKay I came across a article today that pertains to this topic.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/08/tony-boyer-shares-secrets-in-ps-interview-read-it/

Mr Boyer says vertical dispersion is not so much load-related as it is related to how the rifle is setup. I realize Mr Boyer is a short-range man but one of the best at that so Id say any and all advice from him should not be taken lightly. Obviously high ES/SD WILL cause high vertical dispersion but what seems to be the consensus from competitive F-Class shooters as the best way to set the rifle up for minimal vertical??

If you look at modern F-Open and F-TR rifles, they are all pretty much long(30"+) barreled long forend stocked rifles. Common sense(something I lack) would tell me this creates a situation where the long forend will bounce and flex with each shot with that long, heavy barrel leveraging down on it. We all know the mantra that rigidity/flexibility has nothing to do with accuracy as long as its repeatable. However, I would like yall to take a look at what Mr Speedy Gonzales came up with as an experiment for trying to minimize vertical outside of load development:

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?84233-New-stuff-we-are-playing-with-in-the-F-Class-game

To my eyes it looks largely to be a barrel-block with 2 rings on the barrel over a single base. It is his prediction that this will isolate the barrel from the bouncing effect of the stock`s forend. That was a pretty old post though. I was wondering if anyone knows if there has ever been any progress on this isolated block experiment? Looks promising in my opinion...

[br]
Most F-Open shooters with a well-designed stock and balanced setup do not have a problem holding short range vertical. At 1000 yards, it is ES that will kill you. Mr. Boyer is an exceptional BR shooter, apparently the best, but what applies to his discipline does not necessarily apply to another.

 

[Raythemanroe]

Wind, 6mm's (Dasher) seem to get all ten down range faster while winds allow.. Bigger 30's seem to buck the wind better.. My first shoot Joe Salt showed me his ten shot group with two or less inches of vertical.. I think a 300wsm if you can get it to track well but the Dasher's seem to have the tracking.. I see many good vertical guns, but I believe for me is getting it to track well to get rounds down range before conditions change...wind


Ray

 

[dannyjbiggs]

OKay I came across a article today that pertains to this topic.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2009/08/tony-boyer-shares-secrets-in-ps-interview-read-it/

Mr Boyer says vertical dispersion is not so much load-related as it is related to how the rifle is setup. I realize Mr Boyer is a short-range man but one of the best at that so Id say any and all advice from him should not be taken lightly. Obviously high ES/SD WILL cause high vertical dispersion but what seems to be the consensus from competitive F-Class shooters as the best way to set the rifle up for minimal vertical??

If you look at modern F-Open and F-TR rifles, they are all pretty much long(30"+) barreled long forend stocked rifles. Common sense(something I lack) would tell me this creates a situation where the long forend will bounce and flex with each shot with that long, heavy barrel leveraging down on it. We all know the mantra that rigidity/flexibility has nothing to do with accuracy as long as its repeatable. However, I would like yall to take a look at what Mr Speedy Gonzales came up with as an experiment for trying to minimize vertical outside of load development:

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?84233-New-stuff-we-are-playing-with-in-the-F-Class-game

To my eyes it looks largely to be a barrel-block with 2 rings on the barrel over a single base. It is his prediction that this will isolate the barrel from the bouncing effect of the stock`s forend. That was a pretty old post though. I was wondering if anyone knows if there has ever been any progress on this isolated block experiment? Looks promising in my opinion...

[br]
Most F-Open shooters with a well-designed stock and balanced setup do not have a problem holding short range vertical. At 1000 yards, it is ES that will kill you. Mr. Boyer is an exceptional BR shooter, apparently the best, but what applies to his discipline does not necessarily apply to another.

(Hello Steve...I've got a private question for you...mind giving up your telephone number to me?? Dan Biggs)

 

[Steve Blair]

(Hello Steve...I've got a private question for you...mind giving up your telephone number to me?? Dan Biggs)

[br]
Sent a PM, Danny.

 

[johara1]

Ray, Two inch's of vertical isn't a big deal with a Dasher but not every day. I watch those big guns fall to the Dasher over the year,side by side same relays. running them or picking them it doesn't matter……. jim

 

[Raythemanroe]

Ray, Two inch's of vertical isn't a big deal with a Dasher but not every day. I watch those big guns fall to the Dasher over the year,side by side same relays. running them or picking them it doesn't matter……. jim

I'm not disagreeing, I think for me as a rookie the heavy bullets seem to stay on paper better. I think the Dasher is a better aid to the shooter..


Ray