264 win model 70 pre 64

[huntrrr]

I am currently working up loads for a model 70 264 win mag a project for my brother. He has a 1961 production that was purchased by our dad . The rifle was in very good condition but had been cased for nearly 20 years. Upon inspection there was a bit of pitting on the muzzle bleeding into the crown. We decided to have the rifle restocked in a bell and carlson carbelite. The stock was available through stockystocks.com We also had the barrel recrowned purchased some nosler brass and some 130 gr accubonds,and redding dies to start. It has been restocked by a very competent gunsmith. I would be willing to bet the rifle had had less than 100 rounds through it in its lifetime. I started with Retumbo at 64.5 gr. and have worked up to 70 gr. with no sign of pressure. No cratered primers or sticky bolt or extactor marks. I have also shot IMR 4831 and Magpro. I have been able to get 3 shot groups around 1 inch to 1 1/4 with some of the powders and velocity around 3300-3400 fps. The strange thing is the velocity is very erratic across the board. I can shoot a 5 shot group and get spreads of 3144-3319-3215-3433-3127. I have worked with many rifles through the years but this is my first pre 64 win. There is a screw on these rifles that i assume was to allow a pressure point adjustment in the fore-end. I have seen the groups get tighter the furthur I back up this adjustment. The gunsmith suggested I try this pressure point and if need be take a dremel tool and grind out the pressure point to allow the barrel to be floated and bypass the pressure point any suggestions.

 

[huntrrr]

Just hope to get this gun down under an inch with respectable velocity for a 264 with 130 gr. bullets. My biggest concern is the extreme spread from shot to shot. Thanks for you help in advance. Huntrrr

 

[huntrrr]

I started off at .010 off the rifling by means of my sinclair tool. Primers are cci 250.

 

[1SHOT1KILL1]

I would suggest trying standard LR primers instead of magnum LR primers. It has been my experience that with case, with 70-ish grain capacity ot less, really doesn't need magnum primers (unless in extreme cold temps). I have seen the use of magnum primers give erratic velocities, with wild extreme spreads.

If you incounter ingition problems with standard primers with Retumbo, maybe try Reloader 25 or 22, as they have a higher nitrocellulos(?) content and are much easier to iginte. They are slow enough for what you are trying to do, give uniform velocities and pressures, and are fairly temperature insensitive.

Also check neck thickness of the case and trim if neccessary. Differences in neck thickness can cause differences in pressures, thus veloicites.

 

[CatShooter]

Just hope to get this gun down under an inch with respectable velocity for a 264 with 130 gr. bullets. My biggest concern is the extreme spread from shot to shot. Thanks for you help in advance. Huntrrr

The extreme spreads are fine - remember that this is a 50 year old hunting rifle, not a benchrest rifle.

The magnum primers are also fine - powders like 4831 and Retumbo in 70 grain loads justify a magnum primer - they will NOT give you erratic velocities.

Play with seating depth - I load my 264WM to touch the rifling about 10 thou.

 

[FryeGuy]

I always had good luck with the H4831sc. I used it in every bullet with a .264wm. 100hp to the 140spt. I never had velocity spreads like you are experiencing. I did actually do an experiment with standard LR primers and magnum primers, using H4831sc & Imr4350., w/ same loads thru an oehler. the results weren't dramatic. I ended up using magnum primers just because I had purchased 3k of them when I finally found them. I wish I still had all the notes from that experiment. I remember the velocity change was very close, less than 30fps. I had just as much spread from 3 shot group to group using the same exact everything as I would changing primers. You could always change bullet size. I had one .264 that loved 100hp, would shoot the 120's pretty good, but hated anything else. I have also seen another 264 that wouldn't shoot 100hp under 2", then shoot the 120's under an inch every time. I have yet to have a .264 that shot the 140spt as well as they would the lighter bullets. just my experience with about 6-8 different rifles in .264wm

 

[ChrisNZ]

Before you go to any further lengths, I'd suggest you have the barrel recrowned.
You're lucky it's shooting at all with a pitted crown

Chris-NZ

 

[lurcher]

This is a question in ignorance

The extreme spreads are fine - remember that this is a 50 year old hunting rifle, not a benchrest rifle

Is the rifle itself a determinant of ES? How does this work? variation in chamber expansion/action flex/pressure shot to shot?

 

[smoking-brass]

Chris, it was posted in the beginning ...he had it re-crowned

 

[smoking-brass]

Huntrr,
In the beginning of your post you said it had less than 100 rds. Thur it....also it sat in a case for over 20 yrs... clean the barrel back to the metal with a good copper cleaner and bore cleaner if you haen't done that already... then do a break in procedure...then do load development.
264Wm with the old style bullets and lack of good copper cleaners on the market years ago the rifle barrel could of built up a lot of copper fouling. Copper fouling in mags causes all kinds of problems. Good luck.

 

[huntrrr]

Folks thanks so much for the replies I actually spent a couple days with montana extreme both the bore solvent and the copper solvent ( the replacement for 50 bmg) It was pretty nasty so ..... got that cleaned up ( many passes) and started working up loads. I actually talked to the gunsmith today and he was really suprised by the extreme velocity speads. His suggestion was to try non magnum primers with reloader 25 and give him back some input. He looked at the bore with the scope and said it looked well considering its age. Im figuring its gonna be somewhat of a puzzle (pretty overbore cartridge) ande might just take some time. Thanks again for your help ill keep you all posted on my results . All other suggestions or input would be welcomed. Thanks again to you all........... Huntrrr..............

 

[ChrisNZ]

woops, didn't read the initial post carefully enough.. :-X
Certainly all the obvious things have now been checked. I assume the stock is carefully fitted and bedded to the action.
Personally, I'd next try it fully free-floating.

Chris-NZ

 

[msinc]

Try anealling the necks for the velocity spread. Also, a common problem with belted magnums is the belt headspace might be perfect but the shoulder is long in the chamber. If you full length resize to spec the shoulder of the case may be back from the chamber. You will need a case gauge to check this. Only way to correct it is rechamber the barrel with a high quality finish reamer. This is sort of rare but if you have this issue you will not get it to shoot accurate until the shoulder of the case is within .001 of the chamber for the best accuracy. I have found this to be true of any belted magnum rifle round. Many shooters dont even know to check for it. If in fact you have hard necks and/or the chamber problem you are probably not going to get better groups than what you are seeing now. Pressure points and muzzle crowns wont cause the velocity spreds you are getting. That's an ammo problem that must be corrected. Could be the load but I doubt it. Usually if you hear a little "chirp" when the expander is pulled back thru the neck they are hardened and this is a sign you need to anneal. Also, that is a hot round and many throats have been shot out trying to work up a load...I would drop back to a little lower velocity and dont let it get hot when shooting until you get the other things ironed out. Good luck.

 

[huntrrr]

Hey folks back to the 264 drawing board. I have solved my extreme spread issues by going to Fed 210m primers. I have shot 130 gr accubonds and 129 gr hornady interlocks and Nosler partition 125's with Retumbo Rel 25 IMR 4831 and magpro. I am still dealing with 1-1/2 -2 inch groups. I am perplexed as I remember as a young man this same rifle would shoot factory winchester 140 gr. loads in the half inch range. Guess its time to go to 140 gr. bullets and see if that is what it wants. I have considered the 120 gr ballistic tips but really don't want to hunt with them at 264 velocity's. The one thing that stands out is that I am still getting alot of copper in the bore after only 8-10 shots. I can sit on the same bench, same rest and shoot 5 shots into 3 tenths with my 308. Guess the overbore calibers are just more particular as far as what you feed em. Thanks for any input in advance......... Huntrrr

 

[wboggs]

If I recall, the original Super-X 140 gr. might have been a two diameter bullet much like the 250 in the .348. I bought a new .264 Westener when they first came out and used Sierras. Accuracy was around 11/2" with most loads. Of course, I had no idea how to load target ammo, didn't know bedding, and there were no chronographs. The accuracy you get now was unheard then, especially in a hunting rifle built in the50's. My most accurate was a Rem. 722 in .222 Rem with a 26" barrel. That would shoot under 1", again with Sierras.
The .264 was ahead of its time and most people used the 100gr bullets and didn't reload. The bullet was fragile and essentially unsuited for big game. I used them for long range varmits but could tell right away they were not as accurate as the 140.
Good luck with your .264.
Bill

 

[MrMajestic]

Your expectations may be unobtainable. As was stated previously metallurgy and manufacturing have improved greatly. I assume this is a sporter weight barrel to boot. That being said I own a 1941 vintage Remington 141 in .35 Remington that will shoot handloaded Hornady 200 grain Flextips into 1/2" 3 round groups at a 100 yards pretty regularly! That is with absolutely no accuracy work to the case! Remember to that 1 1/2 MOA will stay in the kill zone of medium game out to 600 yards easy, if you get the range and wind right! Good luck, gotta love a challenge!

 

[PREMOD70]

The barrel is probably not broken in yet so use some JB on the bore. The screw on the barrel should be taken out and stored in my opinion; the barrel should not be touching the stock. Bed the action as well as a couple of inches of barrel in front of the receiver; do not tighten the middle action screw, running it up with your fingers is good enough. Relieve the area around the magazine and make sure the magazine is floating between the action and floorplate. There are other things to consider but try those first, good luck.

 

[Orehunter]

This question got me to register. I am 68 years old and have had a 264 model 70 since 1964. It is a pre-64 with 26in barrel. It has a period 6power Redfield scope, and while I own other accurate Model 70's, it is the most accurate. This rifle likes to be pushed hard. The throat shows little wear because I shoot it slowly so as not to overheat the barrel. It is pretty rare event when more than one shot is necessary. The action is bedded from rear tange to the front of the recoil lug mortice face, from the rear of the chamber section to the front of the chamber section, and one pressure point of compound an inch or two from the end of the barrel chanel in the stock. The forend screw on mine gives the accuracy. Snug it up and slowly shoot while loosening the screw a quarter turn at a time. Watch the groups shrinik. Always used Winchester brass, and Winchester large rifle primers. If you free float I think the best groups you can expect will be inch to inch and a half. Shoot slowly and clean and the end of the season.

 

[justashooter]

I've shot several 264 Win Mags, even had a reamer made by Pacific. .The most accurate load I've ever had was using a 108 grain Lapua with 69 grains of 4831. My rifle I have now have will shoot will under moa at 1200 yards. I built a custom Savage and the best group was 2 3/8 five shot at 1000 yards.