250-3000 Ackley Improved......

[Brians356]

Good to know!!!! I"m still below published data but with this being my first go around with this cartridge I started off low. If you are able to get 3400 out of the 90's I should get there with the 85's and obviously they down right shoot!!! What I like is this rifle shot both the 85 and 110's really well. I am going to keep playing around with loads and then settle on something. Quick Question, I have 100 pcs of NEW WW 250 Savage Brass. How did you go about fire forming them?? I received 48 pcs of Fire Formed brass when I got the rifle but I need at least 150 pcs to keep my OCD in check. I just don't know if I wanna run 100 bullets through the barrel for nothing.

Go back and read my comment on "bulletless" fireforming. Why waste good bullets and powder? Why waste your precious time seating bullets? Some will say the forming loads will be accurate enough to go hunting while forming. Come on, nobody wants to plan a hunt around fireforming! Maybe if your pasture in CO was overrun by prairie dogs, and you couldn't keep up with killing them. No, just pop those cases with 15 grs of Bullseye (or the like) and pistol primers as I described and be done. Then start the real loading.
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[20VarTarg]

Go back and read my comment on "bulletless" fireforming. Why waste good bullets and powder? Why waste your precious time seating bullets? Some will say the forming loads will be accurate enough to go hunting while forming. Come on, nobody wants to plan a hunt around fireforming! Maybe if your pasture in CO was overrun by prairie dogs, and you couldn't keep up with killing them. No, just pop those cases with 15 grs of Bullseye (or the like) and pistol primers as I described and be done. Then start the real loading.
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I was being lazy and didn't scroll up. Couldn't remember if that was you that mentioned it or another guy. I am definitely going to try it. I have a bunch of 87 grain bullets that I will probably never use and they would be great for fireforming but just see no reason to put the wear on the barrel. Looks like I'm gonna dig out the Bullseye and start filling cases.

 

[Brians356]

I was being lazy and didn't scroll up. Couldn't remember if that was you that mentioned it or another guy. I am definitely going to try it. I have a bunch of 87 grain bullets that I will probably never use and they would be great for fireforming but just see no reason to put the wear on the barrel. Looks like I'm gonna dig out the Bullseye and start filling cases.

The rest of the story:

Upon first getting my custom 250 AI rifle, I bought a couple of boxes of (Remington) 250 Savage ammo at a store and fired them. While serviceable, I wasn't impressed with the shoulders, as they weren't nicely pointed. I then reloaded a few with heavier bullets (jammed into lands) and a full charge of some powder, and still wasn't completely satisfied.

Then I discovered the "bulletless" concept and tried it, first with tissue wad, inert filler (corn grits) and wax plug. A lot of work to assemble, but with about 12 grs Bullseye it created more pointed shoulders. Then I read about skipping the extra junk and just pouring powder into primed cases (bumping the charge somewhat) and firing them at passing clouds. I finished up at 15 grs of powder (dispensed casually in the field from a Lee powder dipper.) Also (because my chamber was haphazardly cut slightly longer than the prescribed "crush fit") I put a tiny drop of Rem Oil on the body of each case, and spread it around with thumb and forefinger before chambering each load - just a whisper of a film. This (I believe) encouraged the cases to back up firmly against the bolt, allowing my shoulder to form as far forward as it could, and also (not trivial) minimized the expansion ring around the base of the cases.

The final step was to switch to premium 22-250 parent cases. The smaller necks must produce a bit more pressure in the cases (good for forming) and of course I benefit from the quality of the brass.
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[Brians356]

The rest of the story Part 2: When I approached a couple of gunsmiths about building a 250 AI on a Remington short action I had, they both asked me "For a quarter-bore, are you sure you wouldn't rather have a 257 Roberts AI? It'll give you more velocity, you know." Gosh, thanks for slapping sense into me. In fact, on second thought, please build me a 257 Weatherby instead.

If I were starting that project today, I would ask them to build me a "25 Creedmoor", and they'd gush "Brilliant idea! Right there between the 6mm and 6.5 CM. With the magical Creedmoor case, it can't go wrong."
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[Brians356]

It's a 40 degree shoulder.. I have plenty of 6.5 Creedmoor Brass laying around. That's probably what I will end up going with.

Did you end up using Creedmoor brass for your 250 AI?

FWIW I have just now realized using Creedmoor brass by running it through a 250 AI FL die will reduce your case capacity somewhat. The Creedmoor case has a thicker rim and a wider extractor groove than 250 Savage (or its children.) Bottom line is the thicker rim+extractor groove makes the Creedmoor case .027" longer to the shoulder than a 250 Savage as measured from the bottom (where the headstamp is.) That means the CM case's shoulder will be pushed back .027" compared to running a fired 250 AI case into the die.

Make sense?
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[Brians356]

Which common shoulder angle, 30 or 40?

Consider fireforming "bulletless" with pistol powder. If you use plentiful 22-250 brass, you don't need to scrounge for rare 250 Savage brass (or fireform from limited factory ammo) and you can spank the shoulders into shape, and expand the necks, using minimal powder and no wasted bullets. Use pistol primers, and about 15 grs of Bullseye. No need to use inert case filler or a wax neck plug. Just take the open charged cases in an ammo box (don't tip it over!) outdoors, chamber them with rifle angled upward, point to the sky, and fire. (To safeguard the loads for transport, you can cram little wads of tissue into the case mouths, or wedge foam rubber between the cases and the ammo box lid.)

Consider that Lapua makes beautiful 22-250 brass.

Also consider that I can run fired 6.5 Creedmoor cases through my Redding 250 AI Full Length die, trim necks as required, load and shoot them in my 250 AI rifle. That's right, the Creedmoor is not so "new" after all.
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Update: Having used 22-250 brass to fireform into 250 AI, I notice the necks look short. Measuring, and consulting SAAMI specs, I now realize that 22-250 Rem has a shorter neck than the 250 Savage. Using "Trim-to" case lengths (rather than "Max" lengths) and subtracting the base-to-neck dimensions, the 22-250 has a trimmed neck length of .238" while the 250 Savage has .264"! This is in part due to the down-sized 22-cal neck (the slope line of the shoulder runs on a bit farther forward before it meets the smaller neck.)

Bottom line is that my 250 AI necks are shorter than if I had started with 250 Savage brass. There's still plenty of neck, e.g. when seated to the lands the flat-based 87-gr TNT fills about 2/3 of the neck.
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[hdskip]

I'll throw this in the mix.....Small rifle primer 6.5 Creedmore brass.......

 

[hdskip]

Although I have .250 brass to use, I formed some 6.5 Creedmore both in small and large primer configuration for a side by side test. With my shooting skills I may not be able to discern any difference. But with motive, ability and opportunity it keeps me off the streets and out of trouble.... Having several options in times of shortage can never be a bad thing.

 

[nrspence]

Great info in this thread! Anyone have a 250 AI reamer they want to sale or know of a good gunsmith that has a reamer I could get a barrel spun up with. Thanks.

 

[SeabeeKen]

It's a 40 degree shoulder.. I have plenty of 6.5 Creedmoor Brass laying around. That's probably what I will end up going with.

I tried this and kept getting clickers when I would get near max loads. I found that the creedmoor bras had a thicker web and went into the chamber and when it expanded slightly it bound up in the chamber. The 250 cases are about .003-.004 smaller at the head than the creedmoor. If your chamber is a tad loose you may get by with CM brass. Some do, some dont. Mine wouldnt do it

 

[DJD]

I tried this and kept getting clickers when I would get near max loads. I found that the creedmoor bras had a thicker web and went into the chamber and when it expanded slightly it bound up in the chamber. The 250 cases are about .003-.004 smaller at the head than the creedmoor. If your chamber is a tad loose you may get by with CM brass. Some do, some dont. Mine wouldnt do it

I'm going to be building one and have tons of 22-250 brass, you have any issues with them being a little short? I don't plan to use any heavy bullets.

 

[Brians356]

Great info in this thread! Anyone have a 250 AI reamer they want to sale or know of a good gunsmith that has a reamer I could get a barrel spun up with. Thanks.

I have a JGS reamer marked "250/3000 ACK" with the standard 40-deg shoulder. Used twice, once to chamber my barrel, and then once to modify a Redding bushing die.
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[Preacher]

I tried this and kept getting clickers when I would get near max loads. I found that the creedmoor bras had a thicker web and went into the chamber and when it expanded slightly it bound up in the chamber. The 250 cases are about .003-.004 smaller at the head than the creedmoor. If your chamber is a tad loose you may get by with CM brass. Some do, some dont. Mine wouldnt do it

Same with mine, just to tight in the rear to deal with.Thinking hard about a new reamer set up for 25 CM brass, but it will be a 250-3000 AI...

 

[SeabeeKen]

I'm going to be building one and have tons of 22-250 brass, you have any issues with them being a little short? I don't plan to use any heavy bullets.

22-250 and 250 savage brass shorten when formed to the ackley version. As the shoulder blows out it draws the brass from the neck. Then you may lose a bit more when/if you need to trim them to square up the case mouth. My only complaint about this ackley cartridge

 

[SeabeeKen]

Same with mine, just to tight in the rear to deal with.Thinking hard about a new reamer set up for 25 CM brass, but it will be a 250-3000 AI...

The CM brass resizes great to 250ai, ready for fire forming.

 

[DJD]

22-250 and 250 savage brass shorten when formed to the ackley version. As the shoulder blows out it draws the brass from the neck. Then you may lose a bit more when/if you need to trim them to square up the case mouth. My only complaint about this ackley cartridge

Do you notice any accuracy issues with the shorter neck or does it make loading more difficult?

 

[SeabeeKen]

Do you notice any accuracy issues with the shorter neck or does it make loading more difficult?

No not at all but it does leave plenty of room for a carbon ring to form

 

[Brians356]

22-250 and 250 savage brass shorten when formed to the ackley version. As the shoulder blows out it draws the brass from the neck.

That's true, but it's made worse if the chamber is not cut short enough to leave about a 1/10" crush at the neck/shoulder junction when chambering an unfired 250 Savage cartridge. (Thoughtful employment of a 250 Savage "go" gauge can monitor this.) This was Ackley's prescription. The 'smith who chambered my rifle didn't leave this crush fit, so my necks are left even shorter than they should be. I also reverted, after experimentation, to forming 250 AI "bullet-less", "filler-less" from 22-250 cases, using Bullseye and a pistol primer, although I can safely fire factory Savage ammo in the chamber.

It used to be that fresh, unloaded cases were longer than Max Cartridge, and required trimming. "Long" cases would be nice, since you could determine the least case length in a lot, trim all cases to that, but ideally leave all the cases somewhat longer than Max. (I use chamber length gauges to find out just how much extra neck length is safe.)

Unfortunately, most new cases today are trimmed to Max length, or even Trim-To length. Heck, new Nosler 223 cases are shorter than Trim-to length! That's cheating handloaders of useful neck length.
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[nakneker]

Revived thread I see, went back and read through it, interesting. I’ve always wanted a 250-3000 AI, my Dad had one years ago and still brings up now and again as one of his favorites cartridger/rifles. Reading through this I can’t help but think that a 25 creed is the easy button though. Lots of quality brass. Reamer prints too. Is there an advantage to the 250-3000AI?

I have a 25x47L, someday when it needs a new barrel I’ll build another mid weight quarter bore so I’m just asking out of curiosity.

 

[Brians356]

Is there an advantage to the 250-3000AI? ... I have a 25x47L, someday when it needs a new barrel I’ll build another mid weight quarter bore so I’m just asking out of curiosity.

Ballistically? No, there's no discernible advantage for 250 AI over 25 Creed. Less difference after bullet departure than between 243 and 6mm Rem IMO. On the loading bench, the 250 AI has a shorter neck.
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