not trying to argue at all, I’m just confused at your perspective. You state in your reply to Scott that they add value for sling shooting. I agree and have seen the benefit first hand. If they have no value to PRS, F-Class or any other then so be it. I don’t shoot those disciplines so I’ll take your word for it. I’m going to leave it after this. You have your opinion, I have mine. Doesn’t make either one of us right or wrong, just means we live in a world where you can have civil discourse. Have a good night.
22rf "trainers' ...what do they really train?
- Thread starter garandman
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not trying to argue at all, I’m just confused at your perspective. You state in your reply to Scott that they add value for sling shooting. I agree and have seen the benefit first hand. If they have no value to PRS, F-Class or any other then so be it. I don’t shoot those disciplines so I’ll take your word for it. I’m going to leave it after this. You have your opinion, I have mine. Doesn’t make either one of us right or wrong, just means we live in a world where you can have civil discourse. Have a good night.
xswanted
Gold $$ Contributor
What does a “trainer” rifle do?
Provides a cost effective way to train yourself basic shooting principals without recoil, muzzle blast and need for a rifle range. I know plenty of people that have 50’ ranges in their basements or the ability to shoot in an area where shooting a centerfire wouldn’t be permitted.
For years I shot hp silhouette and I dry fired in my basement at reduced targets everyday for quite some time.
When I couldn’t access the range I shot regularly at I’d set up the rimfire silhouettes and shoot those. Trigger control and position were the two main fundamentals gleaned from this. My scores always reflected it when I shot more rimfire than not.
I guess it’s not effective if a guy has purchased a $2500 woohoo rifle to train with but the again there’s a lot of rimfires out there that will shoot amazingly well for a fraction of that price.
Provides a cost effective way to train yourself basic shooting principals without recoil, muzzle blast and need for a rifle range. I know plenty of people that have 50’ ranges in their basements or the ability to shoot in an area where shooting a centerfire wouldn’t be permitted.
For years I shot hp silhouette and I dry fired in my basement at reduced targets everyday for quite some time.
When I couldn’t access the range I shot regularly at I’d set up the rimfire silhouettes and shoot those. Trigger control and position were the two main fundamentals gleaned from this. My scores always reflected it when I shot more rimfire than not.
I guess it’s not effective if a guy has purchased a $2500 woohoo rifle to train with but the again there’s a lot of rimfires out there that will shoot amazingly well for a fraction of that price.
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
I've said repeatedly here that CF dry fire practice is actually more effective than rim fire practice..
With dry fire, You get to break the shot and see if your reticle moved at all… all without any cost whatsoever. Don't even have to spend time driving to the range.
As others have said, you're probably going to need to spend about $4000 on a rim fire trainer in order for it to in any way mimic your center fire gun.
I can shoot a ton of hand loads for $4000.
orkan
Site $$ Sponsor
Why choose? I shoot 20k+ rounds of precision rimfire and 10k+ rounds of precision centerfire every year. Some years a lot more.
I don't drive to a range... I just walk outside. Live fire is always more valuable than dry fire.
$4k, $8k, $12k on a rifle... who cares. I have multiples of them. No one is forcing anyone to buy rifles. So why so much hand wringing about cost? There are options at literally every price point. You think the guys that run bergara centerfires have to go spend $4k to mimic their centerfire? You can get a B14R for under a thousand bucks, last I checked. For another thousand, you can stick it in whatever stock/chassis your centerfire is in. If the goal is alleviating ones self of pressure to attain more money to buy products, any argument, right or wrong, will suffice as justification.
This entire thread is started with the premise of you arguing a negative. So while you go on and on about there being no water in the glass... the rest of us are drinking our full. Your statements regarding precision 22lr and what can/can not be learned from it might be accepted by those with little or no experience. Those of us with 20 years or more of time with precision 22lr simply aren't going to be swayed by false gospel which directly contradicts our own hard earned experience. We don't just think time spent with 22lr is valuable. We know it is. After the reasons being shared with you, no matter their legitimacy, you maintain your position... trying to argue a negative and mistakenly thinking the burden of proof falls on us. Such a pointless thread, and one I'll not participate in further. It's as if someone called you up yesterday and tried to force you to buy a 22lr or something. lol
https://www.zmescience.com/science/the-dunning-kruger-effect-feature/
If a man searches for scarceness, he will find it. If a man searches for abundance, he will find it.
I'd also like to point out, there is no way for any of us to refute what you're saying, without you trying to take offense. The mere suggestion that you simply don't know what you don't know, causes offense, and this is evidenced by your refusal to accept it when presented with it. Such is the nature of strongly held beliefs that are consequently, wrong. Further increasing the pointlessness of this thread.
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garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
Then, given your half dozen posts, I excuse you from further participation, since you find this all pointless..
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garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
I don't beleive practice makes perfect. I beleive perfect practice makes perfect.
There are just too many differnces between 22rf practice and CF shooting:
When I'm shooting my rimfire, I'm practicing / training for that discipline. When I'm shooting my center fire gun, I'm training / practicing for that discipline. They are very differnt disciplines.
I asked "What are we training, using 22rf, that trains for our centerfires?"
A few have actually answered the question. To them, thank you. I've learned some things from you.
Others just got mad at me for asking the question. To them I say "Thank you. But I really haven't learned anything from you. Kindly allow the discussion to continue with those actually answering my question."
There are just too many differnces between 22rf practice and CF shooting:
- Internal ballistics
- External ballistics
- Speed
- Recoil impulse and force vectors
- Trajectory
- Ballistic coefficient
- Wind force and vectors
- Range distance
When I'm shooting my rimfire, I'm practicing / training for that discipline. When I'm shooting my center fire gun, I'm training / practicing for that discipline. They are very differnt disciplines.
I asked "What are we training, using 22rf, that trains for our centerfires?"
A few have actually answered the question. To them, thank you. I've learned some things from you.
Others just got mad at me for asking the question. To them I say "Thank you. But I really haven't learned anything from you. Kindly allow the discussion to continue with those actually answering my question."
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
If you read thru, I learned and was informed by several of things that a 22 trainer is useful for.
And I thanked them for the information. To include:
- Training youth
- Web / sling training
- All shooting can help train any shooting - to a point
I am not being "that guy." If you would care to add specific benefits to the list (above) , please do. I really want to maximize my trigger time, and your input to aid me is welcome. But also be willing to admit the numerous, significant differnces btwn RF and CF training.
Thank you.
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
If you can list specific benefits of using a rim fire trainer to train center fire, please do so. We have already identified 2 or 3.
If you cannot , there is no need to announce your departure. I am pretty sure I'll be able to figure out ya left on my own.
If you cannot , there is no need to announce your departure. I am pretty sure I'll be able to figure out ya left on my own.
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garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
Went back thru to dbl check what I can take away:
1. RF trainers help with sling shooting
2. Several have experience increased CF scores while training with 22rf. Yes, any shooting can help pretty much all forms of shooting. I’m more looking for the specific correlation of how to use my rf trainer to improve my cf scores, not just ppl telling me it worked for them. As the old saying goes.... I really don't understand a concept until I can explain it to others such that they "get" it.
3. RF trainers help with CF trigger control. Sure, any shooting helps with all shooting. But I can also do that better with my CF gun at home, without spending up to $4k on another gun, or travelling to the range, or spending any $$$ on ammo, all while watching my reticle to see if my scope moves without recoil interfering. (Full disclosure" I arelady own one Vudoo 2rf and am ordering the V-22S as soon as its avaialble. Simpy cuz hey are fun to shoot and I view them as an end unto themselves.)
4. RF is cheaper to shoot. Yes and dry fire practice is free, unlike Midas + which runs $17 a box.
5. Match stress is something to be worked on and mastered. Thru rf practice and cf practice and matches of all sorts.
6. Shooting rimfire is (more?) fun. Yes. Absolutely.
7. You need to believe in the benefits of rf training to actually experience them. (No, I don’t believe that. But others seem to. Sounds religious, to me. I'm good with my religion / lack of religion)
8. RF practice can help you read wind. That is true….to a point. As a general concept, yes, it will help. In the same way driving a Ford pickup will help you drive a Ferrari. But given bullet mass / speed / internal & external ballistics / BC , etc. reading wind for CF is gonna be very different than reading wind for RF. And totally different past 400 yards. My CF groups at 400 yds are same MoA as my 100 yd CF groups... even with significant wind. Try that with even a $10,000 rimfire , and report back.
9. Best comment of the thread - 22rf trainers are great (unbeatable, really) for training young / new shooters. Tahnks...I forgot / missed this.
10. Totally legit to get a 22rf trainer SIMPLY cuz you like it, and for no other reason.
11. 22rf magnifies shooter error, especially in shot follow thru due to much slower internal ballistics. Good point.
12. 22rf trains “focus.” I agree . Any shooting can be used to improve all my shooting. Does that justify $4,000 on a rf trainer? I already spent the $$$, so really just an academic question, now.
13. 22rf allows more shooting. Yes, its cheaper. By far. But training to drive a car isn’t necessarily helpful in trying to drive a tractor trailer. So this ENTIRE thread was aimed at asking the folks who say 22rf training helped their CF game to tell me ** HOW **…. Not just assure me it did.
14. Training "focus" (very necessary to do) can be done at home, for zero addt’l cost to my CF rifle, while dry firing, watching the reticle on target to see it of moves at all. I will work on that.
15. The existence of lots of 22rf trainers proves they work to help your CF game. (No, I don’t necessarily believe correlation proves causality, but some seem to.
16. 22rf training helps train out mental laziness in shooting set up, trigger squeeze and follow thru. Again, dry fire practice does a better job of that, for all the reasons already stated.
17. The USMC shooting team does several hours of dry fire practice per day.
18. There are essentially two groups of rifle shooters – slinger s and benchers. I really found that explanation helpful.
19. 22 rf lets you practice on shorter ranges. True, but I got a daily access to 400 yard range and what I really want to train is ballistics / wind reading / doping at 400+ yards, which 22rf isn’t really the best tool for that.
20. Why choose btwn 22rf and cf guns. Agreed. If you can afford both, get both. Both are fun and any shooting can improve all shooting – to a point.
I'm open and willing to learn. But to keep the peace, I'll simply wait for other additions to this list.
1. RF trainers help with sling shooting
2. Several have experience increased CF scores while training with 22rf. Yes, any shooting can help pretty much all forms of shooting. I’m more looking for the specific correlation of how to use my rf trainer to improve my cf scores, not just ppl telling me it worked for them. As the old saying goes.... I really don't understand a concept until I can explain it to others such that they "get" it.
3. RF trainers help with CF trigger control. Sure, any shooting helps with all shooting. But I can also do that better with my CF gun at home, without spending up to $4k on another gun, or travelling to the range, or spending any $$$ on ammo, all while watching my reticle to see if my scope moves without recoil interfering. (Full disclosure" I arelady own one Vudoo 2rf and am ordering the V-22S as soon as its avaialble. Simpy cuz hey are fun to shoot and I view them as an end unto themselves.)
4. RF is cheaper to shoot. Yes and dry fire practice is free, unlike Midas + which runs $17 a box.
5. Match stress is something to be worked on and mastered. Thru rf practice and cf practice and matches of all sorts.
6. Shooting rimfire is (more?) fun. Yes. Absolutely.
7. You need to believe in the benefits of rf training to actually experience them. (No, I don’t believe that. But others seem to. Sounds religious, to me. I'm good with my religion / lack of religion)
8. RF practice can help you read wind. That is true….to a point. As a general concept, yes, it will help. In the same way driving a Ford pickup will help you drive a Ferrari. But given bullet mass / speed / internal & external ballistics / BC , etc. reading wind for CF is gonna be very different than reading wind for RF. And totally different past 400 yards. My CF groups at 400 yds are same MoA as my 100 yd CF groups... even with significant wind. Try that with even a $10,000 rimfire , and report back.
9. Best comment of the thread - 22rf trainers are great (unbeatable, really) for training young / new shooters. Tahnks...I forgot / missed this.
10. Totally legit to get a 22rf trainer SIMPLY cuz you like it, and for no other reason.
11. 22rf magnifies shooter error, especially in shot follow thru due to much slower internal ballistics. Good point.
12. 22rf trains “focus.” I agree . Any shooting can be used to improve all my shooting. Does that justify $4,000 on a rf trainer? I already spent the $$$, so really just an academic question, now.
13. 22rf allows more shooting. Yes, its cheaper. By far. But training to drive a car isn’t necessarily helpful in trying to drive a tractor trailer. So this ENTIRE thread was aimed at asking the folks who say 22rf training helped their CF game to tell me ** HOW **…. Not just assure me it did.
14. Training "focus" (very necessary to do) can be done at home, for zero addt’l cost to my CF rifle, while dry firing, watching the reticle on target to see it of moves at all. I will work on that.
15. The existence of lots of 22rf trainers proves they work to help your CF game. (No, I don’t necessarily believe correlation proves causality, but some seem to.
16. 22rf training helps train out mental laziness in shooting set up, trigger squeeze and follow thru. Again, dry fire practice does a better job of that, for all the reasons already stated.
17. The USMC shooting team does several hours of dry fire practice per day.
18. There are essentially two groups of rifle shooters – slinger s and benchers. I really found that explanation helpful.
19. 22 rf lets you practice on shorter ranges. True, but I got a daily access to 400 yard range and what I really want to train is ballistics / wind reading / doping at 400+ yards, which 22rf isn’t really the best tool for that.
20. Why choose btwn 22rf and cf guns. Agreed. If you can afford both, get both. Both are fun and any shooting can improve all shooting – to a point.
I'm open and willing to learn. But to keep the peace, I'll simply wait for other additions to this list.
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B23
Gold $$ Contributor
Guys, this isn't a one against the other kind of discussion. Sheesh, some of you are so ultrasensitive and have such a overwhelming sense of self imposed superiority it's laughable. If some could/would step outside themselves and listen to the sermons they give, they'd quickly realize what douches they are coming across as.
If anyone reads through the last five pages with an open mind you would realize nobody said practicing/training with a 22 RF was useless. As mentioned on multiple occasions, there are some benefits, they just aren't on a one to one ratio when trying to translate the benefits to a CF.
If anyone reads through the last five pages with an open mind you would realize nobody said practicing/training with a 22 RF was useless. As mentioned on multiple occasions, there are some benefits, they just aren't on a one to one ratio when trying to translate the benefits to a CF.
dellet
Gold $$ Contributor
You can train anything you want with rimfire, as long as you're willing to think outside of your pre-conceived ideas of what you can and can't do.
It's as simple as your continual statement that dry fire and watching the reticle is the same as live fire. That simply is not true. More often than not, what you think you see, is not what is happening. Bullet impact and group size will prove that, even with a 22LR. You need both.
If you can't learn anything about recoil management, your rifle is too heavy or your rest is doing too much of the management for you. Rest it in a hard surface, both front and rear.
If you can't learn anything about external ballistics, stop shooting indoors and move out past 50'. External ballistics is taking a known bullet, traveling at a known velocity and being able to predict where it will hit the target in the given conditions. The harsher the conditions, the easier it is for the bullet to be pushed of it's path, and the more you will earn. Same goes for a variation of calibers.
The effect of coriolis, mirage and lighting do not make exceptions for 22LR, they all still effect where you think it will impact VS where they do. Those qualify as external ballistics.
There is a lot to be said for training how you will compete on game day. There is also a lot to be said for training in more difficult conditions, so that game day is easier. In reality it takes both. A 22LR is certainly as, if not more difficult past 100 yards than most decent centerfire at 400.
If you want to specifically train for recoil follow through and flinch, there is nothing better than a good old fashioned flintlock. For extra credit get one that is wrong handed.
Some great advice was given to me long time ago that applies here. "Until you can set it up to make it fail, you will never learn how to correct it".
Decide what you want to work on, find a way to make the rifle fail without your help. Make it so that the shooter is no longer the weakest link.
It's as simple as your continual statement that dry fire and watching the reticle is the same as live fire. That simply is not true. More often than not, what you think you see, is not what is happening. Bullet impact and group size will prove that, even with a 22LR. You need both.
If you can't learn anything about recoil management, your rifle is too heavy or your rest is doing too much of the management for you. Rest it in a hard surface, both front and rear.
If you can't learn anything about external ballistics, stop shooting indoors and move out past 50'. External ballistics is taking a known bullet, traveling at a known velocity and being able to predict where it will hit the target in the given conditions. The harsher the conditions, the easier it is for the bullet to be pushed of it's path, and the more you will earn. Same goes for a variation of calibers.
The effect of coriolis, mirage and lighting do not make exceptions for 22LR, they all still effect where you think it will impact VS where they do. Those qualify as external ballistics.
There is a lot to be said for training how you will compete on game day. There is also a lot to be said for training in more difficult conditions, so that game day is easier. In reality it takes both. A 22LR is certainly as, if not more difficult past 100 yards than most decent centerfire at 400.
If you want to specifically train for recoil follow through and flinch, there is nothing better than a good old fashioned flintlock. For extra credit get one that is wrong handed.
Some great advice was given to me long time ago that applies here. "Until you can set it up to make it fail, you will never learn how to correct it".
Decide what you want to work on, find a way to make the rifle fail without your help. Make it so that the shooter is no longer the weakest link.
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
Dellet - to clarify....
I shoot off a front bipod, usually. Occasionally a front rest. A rear bag, only, ever. Basically a PRS / F-class hybrid.
And as I've seen the terms used:
Internal ballistics: inside the barrel
External; ballistics: outside the barrel.
https://www.bevfitchett.us/ballistics/internal-external-and-terminal-ballistics.html
Its not about indoors vs. outdoors shooting
I don't ever shoot rifle indoors, and I've never shot rifle at any less than 50 yards.
And I said dry fire is BETTER THAN live fire. I've explained why repeatedly.
You said... "There is a lot to be said for training how you will compete on game day." If you beleive that, really beleive that, then you don't want 22rf practice to prep for centerfire matches. Train EXCTLY how you will compete on game day.
Yes, I'm trying to make the shooter NOT the weakest link. As UI said above...only perfect practice makes perfect, and you practice till you can't get it wrong.
Thanx.
I shoot off a front bipod, usually. Occasionally a front rest. A rear bag, only, ever. Basically a PRS / F-class hybrid.
And as I've seen the terms used:
Internal ballistics: inside the barrel
External; ballistics: outside the barrel.
https://www.bevfitchett.us/ballistics/internal-external-and-terminal-ballistics.html
Its not about indoors vs. outdoors shooting
I don't ever shoot rifle indoors, and I've never shot rifle at any less than 50 yards.
And I said dry fire is BETTER THAN live fire. I've explained why repeatedly.
You said... "There is a lot to be said for training how you will compete on game day." If you beleive that, really beleive that, then you don't want 22rf practice to prep for centerfire matches. Train EXCTLY how you will compete on game day.
Yes, I'm trying to make the shooter NOT the weakest link. As UI said above...only perfect practice makes perfect, and you practice till you can't get it wrong.
Thanx.
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garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
Per my earlier commitment.
Justa quick note In the ARA the target folks shoot is a very small 5/8ths in. bull, I believe thats the correct size at 50 yards.That translates into a golf ball sized target at 300 yards and the wind on a centerfire depending on cal (I shoot a .223 at 55 gr.) is affected about the exact same as a 40 gr. bullet in rimfire at 50.So the correlation to my shooting between the 2 is definetely comparable as are the training used.I shoot BR rimfire and off a 1 piece rest,but use a 2 piece in centerfire.A difference but not much.Too old and injured to hunt or shoot silhouette anymore but had in the past.There is help to be had using a rimfire for training for sure,just my 2 cents
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
Those ARA targets (worst edge) drive me nuts! The IR 50 / 50 are much friendlier.
Out to 300 yards, i can see your point.
Beyond that, I don't believe 22rf has much of any correspondence to CF.
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Actually they do ,anytime behind the rifle practicing will only improve your shooting skills.Whether it be waiting for conditions,temperment or simply getting your brain relaxed enough to improve your shot.Past 300 yrds there is relatively little that would effect a centerfire round other than wind and temperature changes due to elevation.charecterisics. They are about the same before that 300 yrd mark.Maybe try hitting a few golfballs 1st,then get back to me about that if ya don't mind
garandman
Bolt Gun Bodacious
Actually they do ,anytime behind the rifle practicing will only improve your shooting skills.Whether it be waiting for conditions,temperment or simply getting your brain relaxed enough to improve your shot.Past 300 yrds there is relatively little that would effect a centerfire round other than wind and temperature changes due to elevation.charecterisics. They are about the same before that 300 yrd mark.Maybe try hitting a few golfballs 1st,then get back to me about that if ya don't mind
I know that will be hard.
But won't that be bcuz the 22rf ballistics won't support that kind of accuracy at 300 yards, where centerfire would?
Hitting a golfball at 300 yd would be comparatively easy for me with my CF guns.
BTW....wind and ballistics beyond 300 yards are YUUUGGGEEE.
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