22rf "trainers' ...what do they really train?

[garandman]

I shoot 95+% 22 rimfire and so far my centerfire scores have tracked upward with my 22 scores. This is for all of score bench, f-open, tactical, 'vintage sniper' and some mediocre sling shooting.

My centerfire scores in 200 yard local matches or 600 yard matches with trivial wind go up fine. Reading tricky wind at 600 yards is another problem.

How I'm ever going to get that where I'd like it to be with only a relatively sheltered 200 yard range available for practice I still don't know.

My match scores have always improved with more actual matches. In numerous disciplines. Even when I didn't do any 22rf "training." Correlation vs. causality.

And range practice can't simulate match stress.

 

[orkan]

Instead of focusing on what I "can't" do with my 22lr's... I tend to focus on what they "can" do.

... and they can do a lot.

And range practice can't simulate match stress.

If your range practice can't simulate match stress, it sounds like you have either a training problem, or a stress problem during matches.

 

[dgeesaman]

They don't train recoil mgmt... there is none.

They also don’t train flinching, if your shooting requires shoulder contact.

They don't train trajectory / ballistics.

A specific trajectory, no. But they definitely train trajectory.

(Think you're good with wind and trajectory, step up higher and try airgun extreme benchrest!)

They don't train reading wind as there is no correspondence between a 40 gr low BC bullet going 1050fps and a high BC 140 gr bullet going 2700 fps

Trigger control and follow thru could be trained on our actual CF guns.

Long range rimfire is better training for this, particularly the follow through.

Now there is room argue whether a full size / clone rifle is necessary. I suppose if I didn’t have one, a clone makes sense. For most of us though it’s probably most of an excuse to build another rifle.

David

 

[garandman]

Instead of focusing on what I "can't" do with my 22lr's... I tend to focus on what they "can" do.

... and they can do a lot.


If your range practice can't simulate match stress, it sounds like you have either a training problem, or a stress problem during matches.

What 22 trainers can do: provide a fun time of shooting at the range.

And my training is fine, thanx. No need to make this personal.

 

[CZ_Lilja]

I don't think anything of firing 250 or 300 rounds of accurate 22LR at 5-10 cents per round. ($30 tops)

I think twice before shooting 200 rounds of accurate 223 at 30-50 cents per round. ($100)

So for me, a lot of it is about trigger time. I don't reload (I know, I know) so CF cartridges are expensive.

I'm also taking up bullseye pistol (Hammerli 280 and Model 41) and the challenge of those can't be replicated with my CF pistols. Course the ammo is back up to 10-15-->25 cents per round. Can't win on that one.

 

[garandman]

Long range rimfire is better training for this, particularly the follow through.

Now there is room argue whether a full size / clone rifle is necessary. I suppose if I didn’t have one, a clone makes sense. For most of us though it’s probably most of an excuse to build another rifle.

David

Just started getting into 22rf long range practice with my Vidoo. So I hope to learn alot.

And an excuse to build another rifle is totally legit all by itself.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

My match scores have always improved with more actual matches. In numerous disciplines. Even when I didn't do any 22rf "training." Correlation vs. causality.

And range practice can't simulate match stress.

Hi Garandman, Been awhile hope all is well with you. you raised a good question, however as it applies, it won't be universal. everyone would train differently using a .22lr.

I put in bold your comment on stress, IMO if you have stress at a match, then this would be the first thing to work on regardless of RF or CF mental game or frame of mind is paramount on shooting well, it effects too much. coming from experience the more relax I am, the better my scores. one match I had other shooters come up to me to ask what happen, as I went 250-17x,249-16x,237-8x! I stressed out when the wind changed directions completely 180 on me and I lost calling the condition.(another reason, I never dope my scope)

Lee

 

[orkan]

No need to make this personal.

It's not personal, it's a statement of fact. Training can produce almost any effect someone wants.

 

[garandman]

Hi Garandman, Been awhile hope all is well with you. you raised a good question, however as it applies, it won't be universal. everyone would train differently using a .22lr.

I put in bold your comment on stress, IMO if you have stress at a match, then this would be the first thing to work on regardless of RF or CF mental game or frame of mind is paramount on shooting well, it effects too much. coming from experience the more relax I am, the better my scores. one match I had other shooters come up to me to ask what happen, as I went 250-17x,249-16x,237-8x! I stressed out when the wind changed directions completely 180 on me and I lost calling the condition.(another reason, I never dope my scope)

Lee

To your point, actual matches are the best place to practice handling match stress.

Analyze the stress level, find its source (which is what you did, above ) , try techniques for its management and then repeat what works.

I work on other stuff during range practice.

Match stress is real. It needs to be addressed. But ya can't work on your car when its five miles away. Gotta be UNDER stress to really "dope" it.

Anyway, that's a very small side point to my overall thoughts here.

 

[garandman]

It's not personal, it's a statement of fact. Training can produce almost any effect someone wants.

You have a nice day.

 

[1Merlin]

Not quite understanding why someone feels the need to come to the Rimfire Forum and bash rimfire. There are several forums right here to comment about centerfire and things related if that's what tickles you... Personally I have a lot more fun shooting rimfire than centerfire. As far as the "trainer" thing goes training to shoot what? Targets at long range are no harder to hit with a centerfire than targets at (proportionately) shorter ranges with a rimfire.

With the greatest respect to all who have posted.... Of course this is just my opinion. We all have one and mine is certainly not without personal bias so I will attempt to keep mine where it might be helpful rather than just stir shit.

 

[1813benny]

The positive points to augment CF training with a .22 have all been documented above. It is essentially no different as to small bore shooters using air rifle to improve their standing scores.

There are many CF shooters who will never see the benefits of training w/ a .22 because they don't actually believe in the potential for improvement nor do they actually "train". There is a difference between training and practice.....and if you don't believe in the possible benefits, they will never be recognized.

Regards,
ken

 

[garandman]

Not quite understanding why someone feels the need to come to the Rimfire Forum and bash rimfire. .

I didn't do that.

I actually have more 22rf in the safe than CF guns. They are the most fun I have at the range. I compete with them regualrly in numerous disciplines. MY current project is a 22rf F - class gun. It will run me about $4,000.

I asked a question about their usefulness for one particular thing - CF training.

A more careful reading of my posts might be helpful.

 

[jpretle]

Well stated, 1813benny.

 

[garandman]

The positive points to augment CF training with a .22 have all been documented above. It is essentially no different as to small bore shooters using air rifle to improve their standing scores.

There are many CF shooters who will never see the benefits of training w/ a .22 because they don't actually believe in the potential for improvement nor do they actually "train". There is a difference between training and practice.....and if you don't believe in the possible benefits, they will never be recognized.

Regards,
ken

For myself, I shoot as much 22rf practice and matches as I shoot CF anything.

So whatever benefits exist I will experience. Regardles of what I "believe.": This ain't religion. There's no points for our "faith."

 

[orkan]

The positive points to augment CF training with a .22 have all been documented above. It is essentially no different as to small bore shooters using air rifle to improve their standing scores.

There are many CF shooters who will never see the benefits of training w/ a .22 because they don't actually believe in the potential for improvement nor do they actually "train". There is a difference between training and practice.....and if you don't believe in the possible benefits, they will never be recognized.

Regards,
ken

Excellent summation. Excellent indeed.

 

[garandman]

I'm more looking for specific things / tangible ways 22 rf trainers actually are useful for training (i.e. recoil mgmt / ballistics / long distance / follow thru / cost savings, etc ) than just assuring me that they are in fact useful for CF traning. That I gotta "believe."

"If you build it, they will come" is really not the info I'm looking for.

 

[coldboreshot]

Or is that just BS we feed ourselves to gin up an excuse to buy another gun?

We call them "trainers" as if they help train for CF guns.

They don't train recoil mgmt... there is none.

They don't train trajectory / ballistics. The 22 rf bullet is a blunt instrument with a low BC and a hyper exaggerated trajectory.

They don't train reading wind as there is no correspondence between a 40 gr low BC bullet going 1050fps and a high BC 140 gr bullet going 2700 fps

Trigger control and follow thru could be trained on our actual CF guns.

What an I missing? What do 22 rf trainers actually train? Our wallets / CC mgmt techniques?

As a competitor who shoots a Palma rifle and who in turn has a mock-up 22lr sling gun with near identical geometry, I will agree and disagree with you on a couple of points. As far as recoil mgmt, agree. Trajectory/ballistics, agree. Reading wind and conditions assist, disagree. If you have ever shot 22lr matches @ 100 and 150 yds and what wind can do, it would be evident. Trigger control and follow thru, disagree. It also coincides with breathing control. That's a plus. The part that may be missing is...it costs a bit less in ammo as stated by other contributors here and I would rather run thousands or even tens of thousands of rounds through the 22lr than have to spend approx. $600 for a barrel blank and service on the Palma rifle. Chances are, I will never have to rebarrel the 22lr in my lifetime. With the advent of more 22lr discipline matches popping up, it offers more sport options. At the end of the day, the most beneficial aspect of the so called "22lr trainer", really benefits the up and coming junior shooters and their introduction to shooting sports. Personally, put together all the biomechanical components in motion from load to trigger pull, why not save a little money a the same time. My two Lincolns.

 

[coldboreshot]

By the way, its not so much what the 22lr bullet will do in the wind, its what you do with the wind before you pull the trigger.

 

[garandman]

As a competitor who shoots a Palma rifle and who in turn has a mock-up 22lr sling gun with near identical geometry, I will agree and disagree with you on a couple of points. As far as recoil mgmt, agree. Trajectory/ballistics, agree. Reading wind and conditions assist, disagree. If you have ever shot 22lr matches @ 100 and 150 yds and what wind can do, it would be evident. Trigger control and follow thru, disagree. It also coincides with breathing control. That's a plus. The part that may be missing is...it costs a bit less in ammo as stated by other contributors here and I would rather run thousands or even tens of thousands of rounds through the 22lr than have to spend approx. $600 for a barrel blank and service on the Palma rifle. Chances are, I will never have to rebarrel the 22lr in my lifetime. With the advent of more 22lr discipline matches popping up, it offers more sport options. At the end of the day, the most beneficial aspect of the so called "22lr trainer", really benefits the up and coming junior shooters and their introduction to shooting sports. Personally, put together all the biomechanical components in motion from load to trigger pull, why not save a little money a the same time. My two Lincolns.

1. Someone else mentioned "sling" which I don't compete in. So that's helpful. Not to me personally , but in understanding how others use 22rf trainers.

2. I'm getting into 22rf long distance. I've competed 50 yard bench for a while and I'm learning wind at that distance. So I hope to learn it at 100+. Obviosly I don't have enuf expereince to know whether reading wind at 200 for 22rf will help me reading wind at 600+ for CF guns. Given the massive diference in BC, speed, multiple force vectors, etc in my mind its like saying "Driving a car will help train you for driving a tractor trailer." Maybe? Not seing it yet.

3. Trigger control and follow thru can be practiced in my basement on my actual CF guns Don't need a $1000 - 4,000 + 22rf for that. With zero bbl wear. And with wind on the range, and recoil, such practice really is *LESS* valuable than watching my reticle in my basement for any movement

4. Using 22rf traners for Other 22 rf disciplines are legit unto themselves, but not a part of this discussion, really.

5. Training junior shooters is prolly one of the best points made so far.

Thanx for an on-point reply.