22bra, 22gt or 22dasher

[urbanrifleman]

Also, for a varmint hunter, a 80g Sierra bltiz bt would be awesome in a 6 XC. We killed a lot of coyotes in Az with the 80g Blitz, loudest plop sound I have ever heard on a coyote with DRT results shot in the stomach, massive hydrostatic shock, 243 Win, Short freebore 12T barrels at 3400 fps with IMR 4064, same in the 6 Rem at 3500 fps.

I would like to have two cases of R#23 and 16, but it is not to be had, neither is AR comp. AA4350, H4350 is available.

I don't know if a 6mm 75g V max would detonate on a coyote hip or shoulder or not. 87g V max at 3400 would be a great coyote round.

My fear is that as distances increase, so does the case for spinners and nippers with heavy 22 caliber bullets. When you skin the britches off a coyote, there is not much there. You can never count on a perfect shot on a standing coyote, you will not shoot many if you do, trotting, running, walking shots are common.

If they were making them.

Thing is, I think the 75 eldm has nearly double the BC and would do the same work. And you can buy them pretty much anywhere. You can also buy the 80 ELDM which has an even higher BC.

That 80 Blitz is pretty much "out of stock" for the foreseeable future.

 

[AckleymanII]

80g eld m is a deer bullet. I would have to shoot some coyotes with the 75g eld m to see how well it anchors a coyote. A 22/250 AI with 8T and shooting 75's has a barrel life of around 900 rounds....you have to choose your poison, but AA2700 could change that equation.

Since 98% of my coyote hunting has been 350 yards and under with, 90% being 275 yds and under, wanting a high bc bullet just does not make any sense. Speed is the killer, good fragmenting bullet, with a flat shooting trajectory so hits are not low in the brisket. A good 53- 55g 22 cal bullet @3800 will do it all for me.

243 caliber, 68 g benchrest bullets make for great coyote bullets, which does not include a 70g Sierra match king.

 

[STS]

I’ve hunted coyotes for more than 50 years and shot > 1000 of them. 100 to 125 a year for many years in a row. I’ve hunted them with a .243, 5 or 6 22-250 barrels, .22 & 6 BR, 22x47 Lapua, .223, .20 Practical and 2 .22 Creedmoors. The difference in performance from about 350 yards and greater is very obvious when you are comparing the mid sized cases the OP is asking about and the big .22 cases. I would urge you to closely investigate the real world ballistics of the 69 to 73 grain bullets as compared to the real heavies. I’ll offer this as an example. My .22 Creedmoor with a 69 grain Lapua Scenar at 3550 out of a 21 inch barrel is flatter than the 80 grain and higher bullets out to 700 yards. 750 and out the big bullets are better. I would urge the OP to find some other shooters that have some of the larger cases and see how easy it is to center punch steel targets at 400 to 700 yards. I have a couple of REALLY good .22-250”s and they won’t even come close to staying with the .22CM at 400 plus. There’s a lot of good advice in this thread and all of it for the benefit of the OP.

 

[Matt_3479]

I appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this matter. Mainly this is an excuse to try a new action and build a new rifle but need to be able to dedicate it some how to something so a back up predator rifle it is.

I’ve hunted coyotes for more than 50 years and shot > 1000 of them. 100 to 125 a year for many years in a row. I’ve hunted them with a .243, 5 or 6 22-250 barrels, .22 & 6 BR, 22x47 Lapua, .223, .20 Practical and 2 .22 Creedmoors. The difference in performance from about 350 yards and greater is very obvious when you are comparing the mid sized cases the OP is asking about and the big .22 cases. I would urge you to closely investigate the real world ballistics of the 69 to 73 grain bullets as compared to the real heavies. I’ll offer this as an example. My .22 Creedmoor with a 69 grain Lapua Scenar at 3550 out of a 21 inch barrel is flatter than the 80 grain and higher bullets out to 700 yards. 750 and out the big bullets are better. I would urge the OP to find some other shooters that have some of the larger cases and see how easy it is to center punch steel targets at 400 to 700 yards. I have a couple of REALLY good .22-250”s and they won’t even come close to staying with the .22CM at 400 plus. There’s a lot of good advice in this thread and all of it for the benefit of the OP.

Im really not interested in the 22 creedmoor. I currently have a 6bra and 6 creed and the 6 creed sees coyote use as well when I know my longest field sits are there (750 yards and in) but it’s slightly heavier and 90% of my hunting properties are 450-500 (more like 250-300 and in) and a couple regulars at 450-500. My 20 tac sees most of my use but I’d like to build another rifle. Once I started shooting the 6bra my 6 creed doesn’t see as much use. While the 6 creed is superb I much prefer the recoil impulse, longevity of load tune, and easy of load development the br variants offer hence why I asked about the bra/dasher, and thought a 22bra with 75’s should handle this matter okay.

 

[STS]

Sounds like you’ve thought things through pretty carefully and have a good option for the long ones with your 6 CM. Good luck with your project.

 

[Matt_3479]

Sounds like you’ve thought things through pretty carefully and have a good option for the long ones with your 6 CM. Good luck with your project.

You feel though even in the br variants/gt tbat dropping down in weight and up in velocity for the mid range 500 and in would be more beneficial?

 

[Dgd6mm]

You say you're looking for an excuse to build a rifle, just decide in your mind which cartridge you want and do it. All your bases are covered already I believe. You want another rifle and cartridge and I think a 22bra would go nicely with the assortment you already have in service. I'm not a coyote hunter, but only in my dreams. However I can only imagine that a 22bra with a 75 or a 80eldm would lay down some authority from 500 and in.
I will add, I know the 22-250 doesn't sound as sexy as the 22bra but it is the easy button.

 

[Ksracer]

You feel though even in the br variants/gt tbat dropping down in weight and up in velocity for the mid range 500 and in would be more beneficial?

I did the math on my current 64TGK's at 3750 vs 75eldm at 3350 and the trajectory is only a few tenths of a mil flatter with the 64's inside of 500yds. But the wind drift for the 75eld is half of the lighter bullet across the board. A 10mph wind is not uncommon where I hunt and it's very hard to judge at night. That's why I'm switching.

 

[NC/Br Shooter]

22 bra is the only reamer I don't have that I really want. I want that reamer. I spoke to JGS and they sent me a drawing. Just need to order it.

22xc is badass. Truly the easy button. People are really loving it.

I can't imagine needing a 7 twist for any of these. 8 twist is plenty.

I'm ordering soon as you get it in 22bra!

 

[STS]

You feel though even in the br variants/gt tbat dropping down in weight and up in velocity for the mid range 500 and in would be more beneficial?

I was in the camp of lighter weight, higher velocity bullets until I started shooting what I call mid weight bullets. Bullets in the 69 to 73 grain area. Those lighter bullets shed velocity to the point that they won’t stay on the target when the wind get going. The heavy bullets don’t win the trajectory battle until you get past where I am willing to take a crack at a coyote. Something in the 700 yard range. I’m in South Dakota calling coyotes today. At the house for a bite of lunch. About an hour ago I shot a coyote at 510 yards with a .22 Creedmoor and a 69 grain Lapua bullet at 3550. It takes 5.25 MOA to get there. In my experience there is a sweet spot in between the extremes in bullet weight that makes it easier to put the bullet where it need to be at practical hunting ranges. I’m always looking for a better mouse trap to hunt coyotes with. I hope you find exactly the right rifle that fulfills your needs. It’s part of the enjoyment of coyote hunting.

 

[Matt_3479]

Thank you everyone. Still narrowing down the parts a little bit. Talking with the gunsmith now trying to figure it out. Only thing that is order ans should be here next week is the manners lrh and trigger tech diamond flat.

 

[NC/Br Shooter]

I started reading this thread and got very interested. So much so, I'm about sure I want a 22 Creedmoor. Ita be for my ruger, m77 mll.
Who or where can I get a barrel for that action?

 

[Matt_3479]

I started reading this thread and got very interested. So much so, I'm about sure I want a 22 Creedmoor. Ita be for my ruger, m77 mll.
Who or where can I get a barrel for that action?

I’ve only seen prefits for the Americans (with barrel nuts). Might need a smith to chamber one to that actions

 

[AckleymanII]

In our hunting, we needed the animals planted right were they were hit. When they ran 35-50 yards, often they could not be found due to brush. So, there is a big differences in where you hunt in different parts of the Continent. We hunted Mexico for 12 years. A two day hunt would yield 13 animals on the worst weekend and up to 56 when conditions were right. A two week hunt would yield over two hundred animals.

A big part of our hunting was concerned with what bullets and loads would anchor an animal on the spot with the least amount of nippers and spinners. We hunted competitions a lot, and avoiding wasted time looking for animals that ran off was an important. Having 4 animals on the ground was not unusual at all, and at times, 7 on the ground on a single stand. All time high was 17 on the ground on one stand that lasted 1 1/2 hours, leading edge of a low pressure front, light snow. Hard to remember where all the animals are since there is brush everywhere with little to no open spaces.

Various bullets have a remarkable difference in how they anchor a coyote.

It would be a new venture for me shooting a fast twist with heavy for caliber bullets on coyotes in open terrain with the plains states.

 

[Matt_3479]

In our hunting, we needed the animals planted right were they were hit. When they ran 35-50 yards, often they could not be found due to brush. So, there is a big differences in where you hunt in different parts of the Continent. We hunted Mexico for 12 years. A two day hunt would yield 13 animals on the worst weekend and up to 56 when conditions were right. A two week hunt would yield over two hundred animals.

A big part of our hunting was concerned with what bullets and loads would anchor an animal on the spot with the least amount of nippers and spinners. We hunted competitions a lot, and avoiding wasted time looking for animals that ran off was an important. Having 4 animals on the ground was not unusual at all, and at times, 7 on the ground on a single stand. All time high was 17 on the ground on one stand that lasted 1 1/2 hours, leading edge of a low pressure front, light snow. Hard to remember where all the animals are since there is brush everywhere with little to no open spaces.

Various bullets have a remarkable difference in how they anchor a coyote.

It would be a new venture for me shooting a fast twist with heavy for caliber bullets on coyotes in open terrain with the plains states.

I could only dream of that. Most we’ve ever got in a single day is 4 and most we’ve ever seen on a single stand is 5 (once) other then that it’s been 1 or 2. We’ve always hunted more for pelt then kills but the guy I use to sell pelts too is getting out of it so now I’m not so worried. I’d rather just hunt them.

 

[AckleymanII]

Pelt market went to pot around 1984, the value of dessert coyotes went down to nothing, with a N. Nevada coyote bringing $55. The work: Skin, flesh, stretch, comb, and brush...does not leave a lot of time for wife, she gave me an ultimatum.

Of course, going to Mexico hunting coyotes with hunting license and gun permits is now out of the question. Today, the Dove and pigeon hunting in Mexico is still incredible, Hermosillo to be specific. Spotted bass fishing in Mexico, duck hunting all is with guides now, and farms have armed guards. Brother went down to some farms we used to hunt in Hermosillo, and he took them out night hunting for coyotes where they slaughtered them. They shot doves till they were tired of shooting, pigeons coming in to the same area, but they had to use the farm's shotguns, Beretta 390 in 20ga.

I was talking about various bullets anchoring coyotes, and the reason is that I have had friends shooting 75g V max on chucks in 22/250's where they said that the combo did not kill worth a darn. I know a lot of Texans are shooting a 22-243 AI with 75's going 3550 or so with success at some distance. Obviously STS could chime in on some of his successes and failures. A coyote is one of the hardest animals to put down and keep down that I have ever hunted, as they have a will to live that is incredible.

In the Winter, we hunted coyotes, and in the Spring and Summer we were shooting ground squirrels and P. dogs. Starting off with a coyote stand was the norm. The mind set from hunting in those wide open Plains states is simply Mind boggling compared to hunting in Mexico, Az, Nv, and Ca. I built a 6/284 for hunting in those Plains states were shots were longer, but here was no such thing as High BC bullets at that time.

One thing we learned, with the 22 calibers, if you hit them in the stomach, they may be gone or lay down and get back up, depending on the distance. 6mm anchors coyotes fast and hard, 243 Win and up.

As I said previously, the vast majority of hour calling was 275 and under with some shots going 350 yds....till you got to the Plains states.

 

[STS]

A coyote is one of the hardest animals to put down and keep down that I have ever hunted, as they have a will to live that is incredible.

No truer words have ever been spoken. The same cartridges and bullets will work where I hunt them, that work where you hunt. We just don't have to deal with all those stupid bushes. I drove home to southwest Montana from South Dakota today and was thinking of this thread. My first post in this thread asked "how bad did the OP want to kill them?" I think that is one of the most difficult concepts to get across to aspiring coyote hunters. Those things do not give up the ghost easily. There is a balance needed that is very difficult to achieve in that you simply have to have the combination of energy and accuracy necessary to get the job done. We talked about shooting them out to 600 yards in this thread. No disrespect intended to anyone, but I don't think any of the cartridges the title of this thread mentions are suitable to work well at that distance. It's all about percentages. Those cartridges will certainly kill a coyote at 600 yards in the right conditions. So will a .223 Remington. The question is what percentage of the time, under field conditions, will those smaller capacity cases put the bullet on the spot at that distance? I am fortunate in that I get to shoot different rifles side by side and see how they perform under the same conditions. I noted earlier, I have a couple of superbly accurate slow twist .22-250s. In good conditions they will group right with the .22 CM at 500 yards. A bit of wind picks up and they just plain fall on their face. They are most definitely not a 500 yard gun. I've killed a few at 500 with them, but it's a low percentage bet.
If you want a BR based rifle, then build one and enjoy it. It's your rifle, and your money, so don't let anyone else tell you what to do. I simply am trying offer the benefit of the long learning curve that I went through to arrive at the conclusion that big distances, and small tough targets, require a very special rifle that has more energy than the BR cases bring to the table.
Hats off to the OP for being serious enough to try to find out the truth about some of this stuff.

 

[AckleymanII]

STS, I think that all of use would love to hear of the bullet/cobo's that fail...without the failures, you learn nothing!

The coyotes here get huge as they cross with dogs. Iin 2006 I killed one that weighed 63 lbs, two weeks later, a pard killed one that weighed 73 lbs! We got fish and game involved, and they were not shocked at all as they cross with dogs. I was shooting a 243 Win with 80g Sierra blitz bt, and that big coyote was very dead, very quick.

As those ranges get long, lots of stuff just does not work. I shot some outside of Dupree, SD that flipped and flopped for 200 yards, 55g Sierra at MV of 3700 just petered out approximately 500 yards with a less than perfect hit.

 

[Matt_3479]

No truer words have ever been spoken. The same cartridges and bullets will work where I hunt them, that work where you hunt. We just don't have to deal with all those stupid bushes. I drove home to southwest Montana from South Dakota today and was thinking of this thread. My first post in this thread asked "how bad did the OP want to kill them?" I think that is one of the most difficult concepts to get across to aspiring coyote hunters. Those things do not give up the ghost easily. There is a balance needed that is very difficult to achieve in that you simply have to have the combination of energy and accuracy necessary to get the job done. We talked about shooting them out to 600 yards in this thread. No disrespect intended to anyone, but I don't think any of the cartridges the title of this thread mentions are suitable to work well at that distance. It's all about percentages. Those cartridges will certainly kill a coyote at 600 yards in the right conditions. So will a .223 Remington. The question is what percentage of the time, under field conditions, will those smaller capacity cases put the bullet on the spot at that distance? I am fortunate in that I get to shoot different rifles side by side and see how they perform under the same conditions. I noted earlier, I have a couple of superbly accurate slow twist .22-250s. In good conditions they will group right with the .22 CM at 500 yards. A bit of wind picks up and they just plain fall on their face. They are most definitely not a 500 yard gun. I've killed a few at 500 with them, but it's a low percentage bet.
If you want a BR based rifle, then build one and enjoy it. It's your rifle, and your money, so don't let anyone else tell you what to do. I simply am trying offer the benefit of the long learning curve that I went through to arrive at the conclusion that big distances, and small tough targets, require a very special rifle that has more energy than the BR cases bring to the table.
Hats off to the OP for being serious enough to try to find out the truth about some of this stuff.

STS, I think that all of use would love to hear of the bullet/cobo's that fail...without the failures, you learn nothing!

The coyotes here get huge as they cross with dogs. Iin 2006 I killed one that weighed 63 lbs, two weeks later, a pard killed one that weighed 73 lbs! We got fish and game involved, and they were not shocked at all as they cross with dogs. I was shooting a 243 Win with 80g Sierra blitz bt, and that big coyote was very dead, very quick.

As those ranges get long, lots of stuff just does not work. I shot some outside of Dupree, SD that flipped and flopped for 200 yards, 55g Sierra at MV of 3700 just petered out approximately 500 yards with a less than perfect hit.

Thank you to both of you for your vast knowledge and advice. To be honest I have plenty of rifles capable of killing coyotes and purpose built for it too. My thing is I’m really just thing to build another rifle, and mainly try a new action. I’m trying to find a caliber that fits a purpose but can be used without being a true barrel burner.

Like I mentioned previously my main fields that are 250 and less I use my 20 cal. I have used a 20 cal for a few years with excellent success and did great for pelts. We were fetching 80-110 dollars a coyote for a bit there in the past couple years in peak season.

The longer fields my 6 creed and 25 creed come out with my 20 cal. If I can get them in I do, if I can’t then I crack at them with whichever bigger gun that’s accompanying me.

My goal for this is to find a caliber that is accurate, with decent enough barrel life (not terribly overbore), and to be a good back up. I wouldn’t be planning to take a 22 cal for 500 yard purpose coyote hunting but ideally not have to turn away from an opportunity at one if it’s there the way I do with my 20 cal.

The reason the br variants came to mind was simply due to their large nodes, ease to tune and simplicity. If you both feel like it’s not going work then I appreciate it and will think otherwise.

 

[AckleymanII]

Concerning the issue on barrel life, and that is the powder used.

Varget, XBR 8208, R#15, H4895, N550, and N540 all burn very hot, and this leads to short barrel life, so the case size can be very deceiving.

Sounds like you have your bases covered, but I would surely choose something with some bullet weight for some longer distances.

I fear that you are going to get sucked into picking a cartridge with 1400 rounds of barrel life or a tad less in one of the BR variants using a powder I mentioned that burned hot.

The 22 Creed with a 12T using 55g Nosler ballistic tips at 4000 or the 60g Berger around 3700 maybe a good choice for you, and AA2700 is the powder that burns the coolest.

With the scarcity of the BR brass in all brands, I don't think that it would be wise to choose any hunting cartridge based off of the BR case as the shortage is just getting started and may get worse over the next two years.

I lost brass when making stands in coyote hunting, looking for multiple coyotes to come in leads one to not be too concerned about ejected brass casings.

STS mentioned his success of the 69g Lapua, so this bullet in a 22 Creed perhaps should be tops on your list for distance shots, and you may have to forego the issue on barrel life if performance in the field is to your liking!