223 rem

[15Tango]

You can not argue with what Kenny has said...

I have a 6.5 Grendel, Alexander's 16" mid-length on a lower I built - I have 100% faith in its reliability and the Grendel's ability to take game.

Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwtOBLrmLiw

I think it'll handle your 100 lb deer just fine.

Wayne

 

[Rock Knocker]

And the prices of shooting hunting quality ammo is going to be the same with all of these larger rounds and .223. Bigger bang for your buck and, haha $$ of course.

 

[Eddie Harren]

Rock Knocker, I agree. It is pointless to argue with Kenny474!

 

[Rock Knocker]

NO. I meant, that i completely agree with Kenny.

 

[Eddie Harren]

I'm sure. I did too! We are very fortunate to have the benefit of his many years of experience. Both shooting and reloading.

 

[Wrangler John]

I managed a park where deputy sheriff's were allowed to hunt wild pig around the honor camp. Most used AR-15's in .223 Remington for the task with good results. Smaller sized deer, black and white tails, should be no problem with good bullets.

I'd try a either a Barnes 62 grain or 70 grain TSX bullet in a 1:8" twist or faster. In my case I'd go with a 1:7" twist as I have found faster twists are more accurate with copper and powdered metal core bullets. These tend to be longer than lead core bullets and need a faster twist.

The 62 grain TSX bullet is listed with 22.5 to 24.5 grains of TAC powder, or 23.5 to 25.5 grains of Varget. Seat the bullets well off the lands, from, .020" to .050". Experiment with depth, seating depth is critical to accuracy with Barnes bullets.

The 70 grain TSX bullet is listed with from 21.5 to 23.5 grains of H-4895 or 22.5 to 24.5 grains of Alliant RL-15.

Good luck.

 

[DCRYDER]

By golly I'll disagree with Kenny!!!!! The more I read this thread the more disgusted I got at his condescending replies!!!!!

I am a trophy hunter myself, BUT I would NEVER belittle ANYONE for hunting deer for their meat!!!!

I got a little warmed up by the comment about the headshots...not EVERYONE shoots EVERY deer at 500 yards. Lots of people sit in the woods and shoot deer at 30 yards. I shoot squirrels in the head at farther distances than that. And I have given deer away and the people didnt like it because i field dressed it. They wanted to eat the liver, heart, and kidneys!!! Cant do that if theyre MUSH!!!

I also dont believe in the slower bigger heavier bullets. Id be willing to bet that there has been a larger PERCENTAGE of deer lost with the old 30-30 than the .223 and thats due to velocity. Slower bullets severely lack "shock factor". Its due to this that i would have to see with my own eyes a deer run off with a jaw shot, maybe a chin shot.

But then to say to wait til they get antlers to shoot them and hang them on the wall????? Not everyone can afford to take an old, tough, stinky rutting buck to the processor to have the meat hidden into some spiced up summer sausage costing $3.00 per pound before it is edible. AND you cant eat antlers!!!

I hope you were drunk when you made this statement...."proper shot in the vitals:heart lung spine".... The BRAIN is not a vital organ????

Please explain to me what is ethical about a spine shot...is it ethical to paralyze a deer, have it lay there for however long flopping its head around trying to get up while you walk closer and look it in the eye and finally finish it off????

And as for fawns, here in KY if it is covered in spots with milk dripping off its chin it is still fair game!!!! Do I shoot them??? NO...But I sure am not going to call someone else irresponsible or pathetic for doing so..as long as its taken legally, he tags it in, and it is eaten!!!!!


Now getting back to the OP...stay away from the R15, i think they are way overpriced. I would go with Rock River. They have good barrels and awesome 2-stage triggers.....usually can find them for $950-$1000. Most are 1-8" twist.

 

[necchi]

rph;
You wanna gud truk gun ?
New England Firearms (NEF) Handi rifle,,200-250$,, 223 ,,1-9 twist.
Shoot's big bullets good, you only need one shot anyways.

Never could understand fellers needing an AR platform for deer hunting.
Remember when they "Sporterized" military rifles ?
Well now it's in vouge to militerize sporting rifles, ??? :

p.s. I live in MN. An for those that poo-poo the legal harvest of any WT deer, be informed that some areas here in MN have too many deer, more than the habitat can support. There is intensive harvest and extra seasons to cull the herd, the point made by rph IS valid that deer will starve.
Thank you Mr. Developer and the average citizen for driving on roads where the poor deer use to live. It's mankinds encroachment that's the problem, but nobody's culling THAT herd.

 

[15Tango]

It's mankinds encroachment that's the problem, but nobody's culling THAT herd.

You gotta give credit where it's due - Zombies can only do so much.

 

[HillbillySniper]

I also dont believe in the slower bigger heavier bullets. Id be willing to bet that there has been a larger PERCENTAGE of deer lost with the old 30-30 than the .223 and thats due to velocity. Slower bullets severely lack "shock factor".

Id say more deer have been lost dew to poor shot placement or well it didnt go down right there must have missed theroy!!

1-9 twist will easily shoot the 75gr amax if your gonna shoot a deer with the 223 atleast go with an amax havent seen one not explode like a gernade on groundhogs, deer, antelope best all around bullet made in a wide range of calibers.


Hillbilly

 

[DoubleUp]

Have been reading these forums for some months, but this is my first post. Let me say thanks to all the members for all the info on the various forums.

Many valid points have been made in this thread from both sides. I'd just like to bring in a couple of others.

First, since we generally agree that shot placement is a major factor no matter which caliber is used, then it seems to me at least that time on the trigger should not be overlooked. Practice, practice, and more practice translates into better accuracy. The smaller caliber .223 can provide lots of economical trigger time especially if you roll your own.

Additionally, rifles with less kick are generally easier for many people to shoot more and therefore become more competent using. I'd rather have someone shooting a 223 who can put the bullet where it needs to be consistently than someone shooting a bigger caliber with little practice time. Just my opinion of course.

 

[necchi]

Amen to that Doubleup!

 

[HillbillySniper]

I'd rather have someone shooting a 223 who can put the bullet where it needs to be consistently than someone shooting a bigger caliber with little practice time.

Couldnt agree more use a caliber you can handle! For my area I hunt a 243 is way more than enough gun for whitetail and also easy to handle! Good first post doubleup A+

Hillbilly

 

[DoubleUp]

Thanks for the welcome. A 243 is surely user friendly and only kills on one end. I've always liked the caliber and it is a pretty tough one to beat all-around. It helps to have a rifle that you just love to shoot, no matter what the caliber, but then we're back to trigger time.

 

[Rock Knocker]

No one can argue that practice makes... better. But just becase you love a rifle and cartridge doesnt make it ethical to shoot what ever you want with it. I have an old 22lr ive shot more than anything, and i love it because ive never gotten a bruised shoulder from it but i would never take it coyote hunting. Has someone killed a coyote with a 22lr? of course, But its just not meant for that sized game.

Ive practiced so much with heavy caliblers ive been black and blue for weeks, but i feel i owe the game at least that. I shot for months with my 30-06 with hornady light magnums, and man do they kill on both ends. I went to Idaho on a 5 thousand dollar elk hunt with 4 bullets... i came home with 3 bullets and an old bull scoring 305 and losing out of another maybe 13 because of a couple broken tines.


I dont mean to stir the pot. Im just looking out for the animals.

 

[Kenny474]

I am not belittling anyone for hunting deer for meat. Nor am I belittling anyone at all. I don't agree with killing a fawn, as I see nothing sporting about it, nor do I see it as ethical. Nor do I agree with head-shots on deer, nor did I recommend spine shots. You have taken my words out of context. I said flat out spine shots are a last resort, and they are much better than a head-shot will be if you happen to make a bad shot. My exact words: (ie: heart, lungs, neck and maybe even spine if nothing else is available) "Maybe, if nothing else is available" in no way says it's what I go for first, and I have never shot a deer in the spine myself. I have always shot in the vital area, and no the head isn't considered a "vital area" in my eyes, though I will agree it's vital.

Remember, this is my opinion and I am welcome to it. I don't hunt just for a rack, but I refuse to kill an animal that is still basically a toddler. If it's tiny, I have no issue letting it walk by. I have and will again kill a spike horn as well as 90+lb does, but never something the size of a dog.

I have never lost a deer to a bad shot, only from using a caliber that wasn't sufficient for the size game I was hunting, so I have reasoning for not recommending a .223 for deer. Not that I have ever used a .223 on deer, as a .243 is the smallest I have ever used.

You can hunt for meat and still be an ethical hunter. Much as you can shoot adult deer and still have very good meat. Not every deer with antlers is 6yrs old or older. They will have antlers by their second year. Not much wrong with the meat of a deer that's a year and a half old. And it's still more ethical and much more sporting than killing a fawn.

And if the fawns never, or even rarely, live through the winter, than how does the deer population survive? They obviously don't have much of an issue making it through winter, or you wouldn't have as many as you do. Deer are tough, adaptable animals and will live through far worse than you will ever imagine.

Like I said before, legal doesn't make it ethical. And in my case, I take ethics over all else. If I don't feel good about it, I won't kill it. And I'm sorry, but killing a deer that is only a few months old doesn't make me feel good. If you like it,........................

 

[DoubleUp]

RR and Kenny, as I said earlier there were good and valid points on both sides. Heck, I'm not even sure the OP was serious and wasn't just trying to set off a chain reaction.

Still it is an interesting subject and one that is highly subjective to say the least. I believe that most people don't practice adequately and the harder the kick, the less practice and more flinching that builds bad habits. Thank God there are folks like yourself RR, who are willing to punish themselves enough to be highly proficient. Unfortunately there are many who wait until just before the opening of the season and go shoot a few rounds and then try some shot that is way past their ability.

I quit deer hunting in 1976, so I guess you could say I retired. Still have my 308 and shoot a few rounds through it every year. It was an adequate round just like the 243. I just shoot and handload for enjoyment and kill the occcasional coyote and bobcat these days, but I do know what a 223 is capable of in the hands of a good marksman.

 

[Rock Knocker]

Yeah, i wasnt saying anything you said wasnt true in the least. LOL like i said many pages back "I cringe whenever i hear of someone shooting at deer with a 22"

One thing i know. If someone is going to deer hunt with a 223 i would much prefer them to have been practicing for weeks or month rather than just make sure it hits zero and go off into the woods.

Which is one other subject that may set me off in some sort of tangent. At least where i am, it is very hard to find somewhere to practice. It takes a lot of money and determination for you to become a member of a place where you can go year round. Many of the sportsman clubs around here have time open before rifle season for the public, which is great but those 10-20 rounds from a bench are all that most deer hunters i know shoot in a year.

 

[DCRYDER]

Posted by kenny on page #2

Fawns, I mean come the F--- on! Get some damn morals and ethics for christ sake! That's just pathetic. Hunting is one thing. Killing a damn fawn is just messed up. Let it live until it has antlers, then put his head on the wall.


This is not belittling? You wouldn't be offended if someone said this to you?

 

[Kenny474]

If I made a comment that I kill fawns, I would expect NOTHING less than exactly what I said in return. So no, I would not be offended by that, I would expect it.

But if I did what he claims to do and killed fawns, I would be offended by myself.

Sorry, but I see NOTHING sporting or ethical about killing what is essentially a baby deer.