223 Hornady brass issue?

[KMW 1954]

I have a couple friends that have been saving me 223 Hornady brass and now have about 250 pcs total and about 200 pcs. that I have reloaded once already and fire in my bolt rifle. So of these 200 pcs. I've had about 9 rounds that were FTF even though they looked like firm primer strikes.

So I now took these shot pieces and began processing it all to where it has now all been resized and set to 1.460/1.462 which gives a .002" shoulder setback from fired length. Thought all was good until I started to investigate those 9 unfired rounds. First thing I did was check the length and every one was .008" to .010" short! So I went through this whole lot of brass and measured each one. Once again I found 17 cases that were that short after resizing

Question is how can this be? How can it be this short after being fired in my bolt gun? I really believe the short cases are what caused the FTF. I have not ever experienced this with Norma or PMC brass.

 

[rebs]

I had this same problem a while back and never did find an answer. I was using Lapua match and LC year date 18 brass

 

[William Vogel]

I have a couple friends that have been saving me 223 Hornady brass and now have about 250 pcs total and about 200 pcs. that I have reloaded once already and fire in my bolt rifle. So of these 200 pcs. I've had about 9 rounds that were FTF even though they looked like firm primer strikes.

So I now took these shot pieces and began processing it all to where it has now all been resized and set to 1.460/1.462 which gives a .002" shoulder setback from fired length. Thought all was good until I started to investigate those 9 unfired rounds. First thing I did was check the length and every one was .008" to .010" short! So I went through this whole lot of brass and measured each one. Once again I found 17 cases that were that short after resizing

Question is how can this be? How can it be this short after being fired in my bolt gun? I really believe the short cases are what caused the FTF. I have not ever experienced this with Norma or PMC brass.

Short in what way. Case head to datum, case overall, case to neck/shoulder?

 

[fkimble@charter.net]

Like William ask: define your "short". OAL being short should not affect primer ignition. Short in headspace could prevent primer from firing. Where the primers crimped originally? Where the new primers seated yo bottom of pocket? What primer are you using?

Frank

 

[KMW 1954]

Short in what way. Case head to datum, case overall, case to neck/shoulder?

Well let's see, I did state that the brass was sized to 1.460"/1.462" which provides a .002" setback which should have indicated base to datum, as COAL is 1.60" with a trim to 1.50", and these cases were .008-.010" short of my set sizing length for headspace. So some were as short as 1.450"

 

[KMW 1954]

I was always lead to believe that rifle brass stretches once fired unlike pistol brass that tends to shrink. All of this has now been fired twice so how does it get shorter?

 

[Straightshooter1]

I was always lead to believe that rifle brass stretches once fired unlike pistol brass that tends to shrink. All of this has now been fired twice so how does it get shorter?

Sounds to me like something's going on with your sizing dies, like for some reason, something might be very different about those cases that's catching in the die to cause this??? My fingers would be wearing out from measuring everything, every step of the way to see where exactly this is occurring.

 

[K22]

Well let's see, I did state that the brass was sized to 1.460"/1.462" which provides a .002" setback which should have indicated base to datum, as COAL is 1.60" with a trim to 1.50", and these cases were .008-.010" short of my set sizing length for headspace. So some were as short as 1.450"

In my experience, the datum line measurement (spent primer removed) of the case fired in a specific rifle chamber is the base line measurement for sizing. From that measurement, the die is adjusted to provide the optimum shoulder bump, if a bump is needed.

It sounds like you started with "range" brass fired in a variety of other rifle chambers. This means that your started with an inherent consistency in the cases. Even though fired once in your rifle, the cases may have not been fully fired formed to your rifle chamber. Thus a .002 shoulder set back may have been too much for some cases, not others.

If you intend to keep those cases, I would separate them by fired datum line measurement. Then size each group accordingly. You may not need a .002 bump at this point. Check a few fire cases in the rifle chamber (with fire pin assembly removed) to access the adequacy of chambering.

 

[K22]

Just like to add to my post # 8, I have used virgin Hornaday brass 223 Rem for about 3 years now and have found it to be consistent, durable, and have had no problems with it except I can get more of it.

 

[KMW 1954]

In my experience, the datum line measurement (spent primer removed) of the case fired in a specific rifle chamber is the base line measurement for sizing. From that measurement, the die is adjusted to provide the optimum shoulder bump, if a bump is needed.

It sounds like you started with "range" brass fired in a variety of other rifle chambers. This means that your started with an inherent consistency in the cases. Even though fired once in your rifle, the cases may have not been fully fired formed to your rifle chamber. Thus a .002 shoulder set back may have been too much for some cases, not others.

If you intend to keep those cases, I would separate them by fired datum line measurement. Then size each group accordingly. You may not need a .002 bump at this point. Check a few fire cases in the rifle chamber (with fire pin assembly removed) to access the adequacy of chambering.

So I have been firing and loading for this rifle for a long time. Previous to this I was loading strictly Norma brass. The datum line dimension hasn't changed. I check this measurement at the start of each session and have also verified this brass as it came out of this gun. All of these were fired in this rifle so I assumed it all should have stretched.

After sizing all brass goes into loading trays and not just dumped into a pan or bucket. The pieces I found that were "short" were all found scattered throughout the trays in a random fashion. So I doubt I am over-sizing or overworking this brass. Also anything shorter than the 1.460" shouldn't have the shoulder moved anyways just because of the fact it does not reach that part of the die. Also to push it back .010" would require a lot more effort than I am putting into it.

I will accept that some may have been too short to begin with as I did not measure it before I started loading it the first time. But that would mean those 17 cases fired anyways, even after being reloaded. The only finding I could detect with those unfired rounds were that the cases were so short.

My experience with this Hornady brass so far has been amazing consistency on targets. Biggest problem currently is finding any virgin 223 brass. So far all I have been able to find is already primed Norma which I am hearing many misfires with those primers.

 

[Cfshooter]

So I have been firing and loading for this rifle for a long time. Previous to this I was loading strictly Norma brass. The datum line dimension hasn't changed. I check this measurement at the start of each session and have also verified this brass as it came out of this gun. All of these were fired in this rifle so I assumed it all should have stretched.

After sizing all brass goes into loading trays and not just dumped into a pan or bucket. The pieces I found that were "short" were all found scattered throughout the trays in a random fashion. So I doubt I am over-sizing or overworking this brass. Also anything shorter than the 1.460" shouldn't have the shoulder moved anyways just because of the fact it does not reach that part of the die. Also to push it back .010" would require a lot more effort than I am putting into it.

I will accept that some may have been too short to begin with as I did not measure it before I started loading it the first time. But that would mean those 17 cases fired anyways, even after being reloaded. The only finding I could detect with those unfired rounds were that the cases were so short.

My experience with this Hornady brass so far has been amazing consistency on targets. Biggest problem currently is finding any virgin 223 brass. So far all I have been able to find is already primed Norma which I am hearing many misfires with those primers.

Starline 223 and 556 brass is good and comes around often. I have used about 500 of that primed Norma and all went bang so…….

 

[jelenko]

anything shorter than the 1.460" shouldn't have the shoulder moved

Could the cases have been short before you resized them? If they have not been fired in your chamber, they would simply stay short.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Could the cases have been short before you resized them? If they have not been fired in your chamber, they would simply stay short.

And along the same theme, was there a bolt closure issue that required th 0.002 shoulder set back?

 

[William Vogel]

I have a couple friends that have been saving me 223 Hornady brass and now have about 250 pcs total and about 200 pcs. that I have reloaded once already and fire in my bolt rifle. So of these 200 pcs. I've had about 9 rounds that were FTF even though they looked like firm primer strikes.

So I now took these shot pieces and began processing it all to where it has now all been resized and set to 1.460/1.462 which gives a .002" shoulder setback from fired length. Thought all was good until I started to investigate those 9 unfired rounds. First thing I did was check the length and every one was .008" to .010" short! So I went through this whole lot of brass and measured each one. Once again I found 17 cases that were that short after resizing

Question is how can this be? How can it be this short after being fired in my bolt gun? I really believe the short cases are what caused the FTF. I have not ever experienced this with Norma or PMC brass.

If I’m understanding correctly, 17 are short. 200 of the 250 are fired and 9 from the 200 misfired which means 191 fired. Now you’ve measured the other 50 left over and 8 are short. So 17 short cases with 9 having powder. Bullets and primer with primer strikes and dud and 8 brass cases. Is this correct? Just read it again. The 200 your sure you’ve fired all of them once already before the misfires?

 

[Ned Ludd]

The issue observed by the OP where cases were as much as .008" to .010" at the shoulder is well-known to cause FTFs. My understanding is that the loaded round has sufficient room to move forward following the firing pin impact, resulting in a light primer strike. Short cases can also be associated with blown primers when using full pressure loads. Years ago, I experienced both these issues with virgin Lapua .223 Rem brass, which in my opinion, is much shorter base-to-shoulder than it needs to be. My cases would typically grow by at least .006" to .008" on the first firing, and the occasional FTF or blown primer (if a full pressure load) were not that uncommon. As a result, I started fire-forming all my .223 Rem brass using more modest pressure/reduced loads and have not looked back. I have purchased and experimented with a fair number of different manufacturer's .223 Rem brass, and not all of them are that short straight out of the box. I am currently using Norma .223 Rem bulk brass that was most likely made in Sweden, and it performs quite well. I also have some Lapua brass for a couple of my .223 Rem F-TR rifles. I currently fire-form all .223 Rem brass using a reduced load. Hornady brass does not have the best reputation among some F-TR shooters, and I have never purchased or reloaded any of it, but it seems to work just fine in the commercial Hornady ammunition I have fired. Personally, I would stick with Lapua, Norma, or Starline .223 Rem brass.

With regard to the sizing issue, unless you measured every piece of brass prior to firing in your rifle, it can't really be stated with certainty whether any might have been short even before being loaded and fired the last time, as unlikely as that may seem. If you haven't already done this, I would suggest measuring all the cases you have and culling/separating out any short ones. That way, you can do some experiments solely on the short cases if you choose to pursue the cause of this issue further, or simply throw them out and move forward with the ones that are not short. For testing purposes, I'd be most concerned with determining exactly how/when the cases became so short, so that if it were some kind of issue with setting up the die that I could correct it. I would also try to find out whether the "short" cases would expand to fit the chamber properly upon a subsequent loading/firing. Chances are good that with sufficient diligence you can figure out what's going on. However, there is no telling how much time/effort that may entail, so the notion of simply scrapping the Hornady brass, obtaining new brass from Lapua/Norma/Starline, and then starting fresh is not a bad idea.



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[KMW 1954]

If I’m understanding correctly, 17 are short. 200 of the 250 are fired and 9 from the 200 misfired which means 191 fired. Now you’ve measured the other 50 left over and 8 are short. So 17 short cases with 9 having powder. Bullets and primer with primer strikes and dud and 8 brass cases. Is this correct? Just read it again. The 200 your sure you’ve fired all of them once already before the misfires?

Yes to clarify, 200pcs. loaded, fired in this rifle, 9 of those were FTF and set aside. 191 fired and returned to process for a second loading. All were resized as normal waiting to be trimmed. Then proceeded with the 9 FTF. First step was to measure with my Hornady comparator. All 9 pcs measured short for this rifle at 1.450" to 1.455" I then pulled them apart and reloaded into new cases to be used as foulers.

These fired cases were fired for a purpose and are to be kept separate as a lot to be loaded and fired for a League use. So am hoping to get 2 loadings thru them in this rifle before I start to use them for this league.

Again I did not take the time to measure with the comparator before ever starting to process this brass as I never expected it to be out of spec short but I guess I was wrong. So in all there are 26 out of 200 that are short. I now have 50 of these 191 pcs. reloaded so will see what happens.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

But what/how did you determine the setting of the sizing die?

 

[William Vogel]

But what/how did you determine the setting of the sizing die?

He just clarified it. The failure to fire cases were not shot in his gun or fire formed so the short length was just a coincidence mixed in and because they were short, the primers didn’t light. It sounds like he’s good with sizing HIS FIRED brass. Same thing would have happened to me, I don’t make sure cases aren’t short, I make sure they will fit into my chamber.

 

[William Vogel]

Yes to clarify, 200pcs. loaded, fired in this rifle, 9 of those were FTF and set aside. 191 fired and returned to process for a second loading. All were resized as normal waiting to be trimmed. Then proceeded with the 9 FTF. First step was to measure with my Hornady comparator. All 9 pcs measured short for this rifle at 1.450" to 1.455" I then pulled them apart and reloaded into new cases to be used as foulers.

These fired cases were fired for a purpose and are to be kept separate as a lot to be loaded and fired for a League use. So am hoping to get 2 loadings thru them in this rifle before I start to use them for this league.

Again I did not take the time to measure with the comparator before ever starting to process this brass as I never expected it to be out of spec short but I guess I was wrong. So in all there are 26 out of 200 that are short. I now have 50 of these 191 pcs. reloaded so will see what happens.

That’s an easy thing to happen. Somebody’s got a really short chamber in their rifle.

 

[KMW 1954]

That’s an easy thing to happen. Somebody’s got a really short chamber in their rifle.

These came from 3 different guns, 2 bolts and 1 AR. Would have been more from the AR but he just picked up what was on the bench.