.223 Blues

[writerman]

8" spread at 100 yards from a previously reasonably accurate rifle. The only time I had excessive spread, albeit, not that much, is when a scope went sideways. Easy enough to verify, try another scope after making sure all screws are secured. I seriously doubt it's a reloading issue giving your 8-moa spread at 100 yards. More likely something mechanical is very wrong either in the rifle or scope.

A 1,000 rounds out of a 223 Rem fired at a modest pace without overheating the barrel is not even close to wearing out the barrel. On the other hand, the "blasters" I encounter at the range, firing AR's burn through a couple of 20 round magazines in a few minutes until the barrel is fried. That's the only way I could see 1,000 rounds "burning" out a barrel. I have several 223 Rem precision bolt rifles that have 2,000 to 3,000 rounds fired through them and they still hold well under 1 moa, some in the 1/2 moa range. However, I do not fire sustained sequences.

Ha! I think I am going to switch to bolt actions/use less ammo, no temptation to blast away, although I love doing that. Nowadays, however, I wait a long time and let the barrel cool. They say bolt actions are also more accurate. I have a couple and they're accurate but it's hard to beat an AR Grendel.

 

[writerman]

Sounds like the scope died while you were not shooting it, I have had 2 do that over the years. Try a different scope and some good factory ammo, your reloading may also be an issue.

Yeah, I am going to do that as soon as my range comes back online. Major rehaul will take two months.

 

[writerman]

Sounds like you have a neck problem to me. Seems like you forgot to size the necks and are compensating with the crimper. Double check?

I sized the necks with equipment that was used on hundreds of other rounds, and they were nice and tight. I think after examining all the comments, it was the thickness of some particular brass that threw the diameter off. Nothing else makes sense.

 

[writerman]

Check the bullets. Are they really 22s?

Marked .223/Remington on the bag. Measured them, they're .224 in diameter.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

If you have a standard sizing (non bushing) die with the correct expander, brand of brass doesn't matter as to seating bullets.

 

[jpjulian]

Marked .223/Remington on the bag. Measured them, they're .224 in diameter.

Sir, give that barrel a cleaning. A really, really good cleaning. Scrub the hell out of that thing and when you think it's clean, clean it some more. Make SURE all the fouling is gone. Not reduced.... GONE. Then go see how it shoots and report back.

 

[DShortt]

I actually did that the same day, still shooting all over the place. Scope screwed?

I'd try another scope.

 

[clowdis]

I sized the necks with equipment that was used on hundreds of other rounds, and they were nice and tight. I think after examining all the comments, it was the thickness of some particular brass that threw the diameter off. Nothing else makes sense.

Brass neck thickness does vary from mfg. to mfg. If you're using a sizing bushing only this could be a major problem and account for loose necks. Even a button won't help if you have a bushing that doesn't size the neck down tight enough for the button to expand it. Been there and done that. Standard old sizing die with a button will usually compensate for these variations.

 

[K22]

Ha! I think I am going to switch to bolt actions/use less ammo, no temptation to blast away, although I love doing that. Nowadays, however, I wait a long time and let the barrel cool. They say bolt actions are also more accurate. I have a couple and they're accurate but it's hard to beat an AR Grendel.

I do not shoot the AR platform, but I have witnessed a few precision shooters that shoot this platform with match barrels, and their performance is on par and some cases, better than bolt rifles. So, based on what I've seen at the range, I do not believe one cannot make a blanket statement regarding the accuracy potential of the AR platforms. It depends, like with bolt rifles, the component in the rifle.

It's a hobby, if you like to blast away then blast away. While it is unpleasant for someone shooting precision next to you unless you have a suppressor, one needs to be tolerant of other's shooting format as long as it is safe.

 

[writerman]

I doubt it is your rifle. Given you haven't gotten the barrel too hot from rapid, sustained fire, having only 1,000 rounds or so - I'd guess the barrel probably isn't the issue. Is this an A/R or bolt gun? Are you using a standard full-length sizing die or a bushing die? If a standard die, if your necks aren't grabbing the bullet, you likely have a mis-adjusted de-cap assembly, whereby your sizing button is opening the neck up again on extraction on your press up-stroke (assuming you aren't using brass with turned necks). If you are using a bushing die, you might try a smaller bushing - however, if you have been using the same die before (whether with a standard die or a bushing die with the same bushing) and all worked well before with the same batch of brass - something changed in your reloading process. Maybe you disassembled your die to clean it and didn't put the de-cap assembly into the same position on re-assembly? Put a different bushing in the bushing die? Seated your bullets a different depth? Set your headspace differently?

When you took your rifle out and found it was not shooting well - were you using the same batch of ammo you used before that shot well? If it was the same batch of ammo that suddenly doesn't shoot well, I'd be looking at: 1) Loose scope mounts and/or rings
2) If the stock was removed since your last trip - was it retightened the same?
3) I'd clean the bore very thoroughly to get any built-up copper from the bore.
4) I'd think about how my ammo was stored - and for how long. If it was in a humid or damp
location for a length of time, it is possible that you may have some degree of case welding
between the bullet and brass neck. That can alter one's accuracy enough to notice if really
bad.
5) Were you using a wind meter or wind flags that last day you shot to give you an idea of
how much wind movement you had going on? Only takes 5-7 MPH to open your groups up
from 3/8" to 3/4" or more. A lot of guys can have problems getting 10 rounds into an inch
with a moderate breeze moving - if not used to adjusting for the wind and having flags out.
Hope you get that figured out. Unless your rifle got banged against something or rifle dropped,
I'd not be too quick to buy another scope - as they "usually" aren't the problem.

The one point you made was 'took the sizing rod out to clean it' which I did do. But I put it back in as near an exact place as possible. Given that it does down so far through the straight part before the neck, I don't really know. Now I have to check that too. But it did work with many, many, other rounds. I am leaning toward brass neck thickness differentials, but do not really know yet.

I do not shoot the AR platform, but I have witnessed a few precision shooters that shoot this platform with match barrels, and their performance is on par and some cases, better than bolt rifles. So, based on what I've seen at the range, I do not believe one cannot make a blanket statement regarding the accuracy potential of the AR platforms. It depends, like with bolt rifles, the component in the rifle.

It's a hobby, if you like to blast away then blast away. While it is unpleasant for someone shooting precision next to you unless you have a suppressor, one needs to be tolerant of other's shooting format as long as it is safe.

I always ask first about blasting away. If they say they don't mind, I go for it.

 

[writerman]

Brass neck thickness does vary from mfg. to mfg. If you're using a sizing bushing only this could be a major problem and account for loose necks. Even a button won't help if you have a bushing that doesn't size the neck down tight enough for the button to expand it. Been there and done that. Standard old sizing die with a button will usually compensate for these variations.

So I'm not sure exactly what it is I need to aquire? From what manufacturer? Any links? Thanks.

 

[writerman]

Sir, give that barrel a cleaning. A really, really good cleaning. Scrub the hell out of that thing and when you think it's clean, clean it some more. Make SURE all the fouling is gone. Not reduced.... GONE. Then go see how it shoots and report back.

Will do. Like I stated before, might a months since my range is closed for a major rehab.

 

[kevinbritvec]

I have a .223 24" bull barrel, no threads, spiral fluted stainless steel barrel, that used to be one of my most accurate rifles I have. I brought it out the other day, and I was barely able to put ten rounds in an eight inch spread at a hundred yards, very unlike this rifle. I was thinking maybe the ammo? Then when I reloaded the rounds because I keep them all separate for each rifle now, I noticed that the brass above the shoulder was too open for the .224 dia. 55 grain bullets I had, so I had to first close it down with my crimper, and then after I reloaded them, crimp them a second time. Since they were all from this rifle, do you think the chamber was cut too big, causing them to expand beyond where they would no longer hold a .223 bullet when reloading? Or it's burned out? There have been about 1000 or more rounds through this rifle, not so many to so quickly, in one range trip, cause it to suddenly burn out I thought. It's either that, or the scope died. Any experiences on this kind of thing?

Check all of your screws. Scope mount, rings and action screws.

I never crimp. I spin polish my expander balls to achieve .0025" to no more than .003" of neck tension, then skip the crimping process.

There are 55 grain bullets, then there are 55 grain bullets. FMJs pretty much suck. Hornady makes a decent FMJ and they are cheap when purchased in bulk. For accuracy testing I use Sierra 52/53 grain MatchKings.

Sierra's 55 grain BlitzKings are very accurate.

Something is wrong if you don't have sufficient neck tension when seating a bullet. No crimp will cure that.

 

[searcher]

Check all of your screws. Scope mount, rings and action screws.

I never crimp. I spin polish my expander balls to achieve .0025" to no more than .003" of neck tension, then skip the crimping process.

There are 55 grain bullets, then there are 55 grain bullets. FMJs pretty much suck. Hornady makes a decent FMJ and they are cheap when purchased in bulk. For accuracy testing I use Sierra 52/53 grain MatchKings.

Sierra's 55 grain BlitzKings are very accurate.

Something is wrong if you don't have sufficient neck tension when seating a bullet. No crimp will cure that.

A lot of very true statements there.... I also spin polish my expanders - and usually take about .001" to .002" off in diameter, depending on how much I turn my necks. There is "ironing out the necks" - and "excessively ironing out the necks".

 

[kevinbritvec]

So I'm not sure exactly what it is I need to aquire? From what manufacturer? Any links? Thanks.

I blew up a rifle shooting Portuguese M193 ball ammo. The rifle had a tight neck for a .223, even though it was a factory rifle. The headstamp was FNM-79 fired in a Valmet M76.

What happened is I fired a round, everything went normally. I fired the second round, and the rifle exploded through ejection port. It felt like somebody punched me, and my right eye was injured in the blast, fortunately temporarily.

Doing an after-event investigation, there was a bullet lodged in the barrel approximately 8" from the chamber. The case exploded because the rifle fired with an open bolt. Inside the chamber, half a case was fused in the neck, with a second round blended into it, sealing it into the neck shoulder junction. The rest of that case exploded out the rear, because the bolt was open and it took the path of least resistance.

Upon further investigation, the FNM-79 brass, empty and unprimed weighed on average 108 grains. That's approximately 14 grains more than any other brand on the market, then or now. 14 more grains in a .223 case, empty and unprimed is huge.

I was lucky not to be seriously hurt. Tolerances exist, as does tolerance stacking. This happened in the early 80's, and I had zero knowledge at that time regarding reloading, accepted cartridge dimensions, foreign manufacturing anomalies, or tools like calipers or a chronograph to see what was at stake.

Nowadays, foreign manufactured ammo is always suspect because of this near catastrophe. Mixing brass is fine, provided you have a history of using it, understand that hot loads aren't acceptable when doing so, and keep closer to the starting load data when charging powder. This is especially true when loading 7.62x51mm surplus brass.

 

[kevinbritvec]

Measure your loaded round necks. Your resized brass needs to be .0025" to .003" smaller in diameter before you seat a bullet.

 

[writerman]

I blew up a rifle shooting Portuguese M193 ball ammo. The rifle had a tight neck for a .223, even though it was a factory rifle. The headstamp was FNM-79 fired in a Valmet M76.

What happened is I fired a round, everything went normally. I fired the second round, and the rifle exploded through ejection port. It felt like somebody punched me, and my right eye was injured in the blast, fortunately temporarily.

Doing an after-event investigation, there was a bullet lodged in the barrel approximately 8" from the chamber. The case exploded because the rifle fired with an open bolt. Inside the chamber, half a case was fused in the neck, with a second round blended into it, sealing it into the neck shoulder junction. The rest of that case exploded out the rear, because the bolt was open and it took the path of least resistance.

Upon further investigation, the FNM-79 brass, empty and unprimed weighed on average 108 grains. That's approximately 14 grains more than any other brand on the market, then or now. 14 more grains in a .223 case, empty and unprimed is huge.

I was lucky not to be seriously hurt. Tolerances exist, as does tolerance stacking. This happened in the early 80's, and I had zero knowledge at that time regarding reloading, accepted cartridge dimensions, foreign manufacturing anomalies, or tools like calipers or a chronograph to see what was at stake.

Nowadays, foreign manufactured ammo is always suspect because of this near catastrophe. Mixing brass is fine, provided you have a history of using it, understand that hot loads aren't acceptable when doing so, and keep closer to the starting load data when charging powder. This is especially true when loading 7,63x51mm surplus brass.

Yeow! Glad you recoverd.

 

[writerman]

Measure your loaded round necks. Your resized brass needs to be .0025" to .003" smaller in diameter before you seat a bullet.

Got it.

 

[DirtySteve]

Here is what I do when I have issue.
Clean the barrel make it spotless.

Take off the scope and mounts. Then put them back on and make sure everything is tightened to specifications.

Check all action screws.

If this fails use a different scope.

If still no joy it is probably the ammo.

Steve