223 Hornady brass issue?

[K22]

So I have been firing and loading for this rifle for a long time. Previous to this I was loading strictly Norma brass. The datum line dimension hasn't changed. I check this measurement at the start of each session and have also verified this brass as it came out of this gun. All of these were fired in this rifle so I assumed it all should have stretched.

After sizing all brass goes into loading trays and not just dumped into a pan or bucket. The pieces I found that were "short" were all found scattered throughout the trays in a random fashion. So I doubt I am over-sizing or overworking this brass. Also anything shorter than the 1.460" shouldn't have the shoulder moved anyways just because of the fact it does not reach that part of the die. Also to push it back .010" would require a lot more effort than I am putting into it.

I will accept that some may have been too short to begin with as I did not measure it before I started loading it the first time. But that would mean those 17 cases fired anyways, even after being reloaded. The only finding I could detect with those unfired rounds were that the cases were so short.

My experience with this Hornady brass so far has been amazing consistency on targets. Biggest problem currently is finding any virgin 223 brass. So far all I have been able to find is already primed Norma which I am hearing many misfires with those primers.

Understand your frustration especially with component availability.

I just purchased some virgin brass, Starline, from Midway. I have never used Starline Rifle brass before, just their pistol brass which performed very well. From the reports I have received on this forum from fellow shooters, most reports are positive, so I am hoping my experience is the same. You may want to try some, it was not terribly expensive either.

Long ago, I used range brass too. I just couldn't pass up "free" brass. It worked ok until it didn't - I won't go into the details here. I stopped using range brass many years ago. All I am trying to say is that for precision shooting, I have found it best to start with virgin brass, dedicate them to one rifle, and rotate it's use so all cases receive the same number of firings and sizing. This has produced the most consistent accuracy and reliability for me.

If one insists on using range brass, then prepping it and sorting it dimensional to provide the most consistency possible should help. As far as the inconsistencies you have reported, brass from different lots and fired in different rifles can lend itself to dimensional variations.

I have encountered short case head space even in virgin brass, especially Remington. It took several firings to fully fire form those cases in the rifle I had dedicated them too. During the interim, I did not push back the shoulder. I had one lot of virgin Hornady cases that the case head space was too large and required pushing the shoulder back to chamber in the rifle I was using it for. The point is, sometimes, even with virgin cases, you have to custom size them for optimum chamber fit in a given rifle, at least that has been my experience.

 

[KMW 1954]

A little of my background, I work as a PT RO at a very large outdoor range with 4 ranges and over 100 benches. So I have access to any and all the free brass I could ask for. I have a 5gl pail of PMC once fired 223 brass. About 600pcs. of Norma and this Hornady that I am using now.

The Norma has been fantastic but is just about to end of life. Most of it has been reloaded 5 times already. The PMC as also proven very reliable in my tests but I wanted to test this Hornady with the hopes it too would be viable and readily available. Also I am too cheap to pay for new Lapua brass even if it were available.

So this Hornady brass. 5 that did not fire were from the first loading and set aside. 4 from the second loading also did not fire.. So all 191pcs. have been resized 3 times now. Of these 191pcs. upon measuring ever single piece I still found those 17pcs that were still too short. So yes this stuff has been fired 3 times total. Once as original and 2 times as reloads! So now all pieces that measured short have been removed. Feeling as though I am loosing faith in this Hornady brass.

After firing this all twice in my rifle I honestly thought this would all have been formed to this chamber and I would be good to start loading this for this rifle to be used in a ten week league with 25 shots per week. I now have just 4 weeks to get this brass formed and a reliable load developed. No time to start over.

 

[Chilly807]

What might have happened is that of the cases that were too short to begin with, some may have fired and some might not have, even though they were the same length. The firing pin strike might have been just enough to light the ones that did fire, while the ones that didn't were slightly further from the bolt face and didn't get hit quite hard enough.
I've seen this happen in a 308 Savage. In that instance, the owner had mistakenly set up the sizing die incorrectly, resulting in too much shoulder bump. Some fired, some didn't. The ones that did had the primer pushed back out of the pockets a bit, and the ones that didn't fire had light strikes.
In the OP's situation, his die is probably set up correctly, but the brass is too short to start. It hasn't "grown" enough in a few firings to be reliable in his rifle.
I'd say you need to measure each piece of brass from head to datum and set aside the ones that are too short for reliable ignition.
How short is "too short" is an unknown at this point. You'll probably get away with using cases 5 thou shorter than your usual size (head to datum), but that's only a guess on my part.

I'll add that I've never used fired cases for an accurate measurement of what will fit in a chamber, simply because I know that the case doesn't always fully stretch on each firing. It may take several firings to achieve that.

I try to take the longest fired cases I have and "stretch" them by short stroking the press. If the shoulder moves ahead, (and it doesn't always), I try chambering that case. If it still chambers easily, it's not long enough to work with.
Once I get a case that is tight chambering or won't chamber, then I very gradually bump the shoulder back until the bolt just closes with slight resistance. That's my "max" dimension. Then I can adjust my die to produce brass that's 2 thou shorter than "max", for a bolt gun.
Anything that's shorter is allowed to keep growing since the die never touches the shoulder, anything longer gets pushed back.

 

[Rsadams]

If you want starline brass there's several places that sell it of course but I have found you can get a better or equal deal ordering directly from starlines webpage.... Plus there's free shipping on orders.... The other thing is right on starlines website they have a warning about cheap knockoff brass out there so I know when I order directly from them that's not an issue... My other advice which I have done several times is if they show the brass out of stock on their website just call them and see when they will be making a new run.... They have always been honest and close to the times stated....

As far as your original question if 191 out of 200+ brass are working fine and it was free brass then I would simply throw away those 9 that are problem children... If the brass was picked up you really can't be sure that those 9 where even your buddies and not their previously and fired in a short chamber gun.... I would just move on but if it happens again with known brass then spend the time to see what's going on...

 

[KMW 1954]

Now I am completely lost!
Was able to make the range today and shoot more loads with this Hornady brass, 39pcs total These were the 3 rd loading of this brass and as stated all previously measured short pcs. were culled before loading these. This time of those 39pcs six again failed to fire.

Again all pcs. were sized to 1.462" and all these 6 FTF measured once again to 1.456", all the fired brass measured 1.462" to 1.464. Also all fired pcs the primers showed signs of flowage around the pin.

So how do these shrink when they are not even fired?

 

[LVLAaron]

Hornady is the worst brass there is.

Sorry. Not relevant to your problem but I needed to say it.

 

[KMW 1954]

Beginning to believe that myself.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Is it possible you might have a "measuring" issue issue? I sometimes find it necessary to wiggle, jiggle, and/or tweak how the caliper insert seats on the either the case shoulder or bullet ogive in order to produce an accurate measurement. Brass should not be changing dimensions without even being fired.

 

[searcher]

What might have happened is that of the cases that were too short to begin with, some may have fired and some might not have, even though they were the same length. The firing pin strike might have been just enough to light the ones that did fire, while the ones that didn't were slightly further from the bolt face and didn't get hit quite hard enough.
I've seen this happen in a 308 Savage. In that instance, the owner had mistakenly set up the sizing die incorrectly, resulting in too much shoulder bump. Some fired, some didn't. The ones that did had the primer pushed back out of the pockets a bit, and the ones that didn't fire had light strikes.
In the OP's situation, his die is probably set up correctly, but the brass is too short to start. It hasn't "grown" enough in a few firings to be reliable in his rifle.
I'd say you need to measure each piece of brass from head to datum and set aside the ones that are too short for reliable ignition.
How short is "too short" is an unknown at this point. You'll probably get away with using cases 5 thou shorter than your usual size (head to datum), but that's only a guess on my part.

I'll add that I've never used fired cases for an accurate measurement of what will fit in a chamber, simply because I know that the case doesn't always fully stretch on each firing. It may take several firings to achieve that.

I try to take the longest fired cases I have and "stretch" them by short stroking the press. If the shoulder moves ahead, (and it doesn't always), I try chambering that case. If it still chambers easily, it's not long enough to work with.
Once I get a case that is tight chambering or won't chamber, then I very gradually bump the shoulder back until the bolt just closes with slight resistance. That's my "max" dimension. Then I can adjust my die to produce brass that's 2 thou shorter than "max", for a bolt gun.
Anything that's shorter is allowed to keep growing since the die never touches the shoulder, anything longer gets pushed back.

This is good advice. To add to that, taking fired range brass from different rifles will always result in differences in length, as measured for the shoulder, as well as differences in "work hardening" of the cases due to different amounts of stretch for the various guns they were fired in. Best thing to do with once-fired brass (only brass I'd use from a range) is to anneal it prior to the first sizing. If you have a known, proven, shoulder length measurement from prior ammo loaded that worked I the rifle, it is easy to spot the cases that might give you misfires after you size them and measure the shoulder. Getting a misfire does not reflect on the brand of brass - but rather the shoulder length being too short to start with - creating too much slop in the chamber to properly allow the firing pin to crush to primer anvil as necessary to create ignition. Lots of misfires will show what appear to be a good primer strike, but can still not be enough to crush the primer enough. The firing pin simply pushed the cartridge case further into the chamber.

In a bolt gun, the best way to fully blow the shoulder out is to slightly jam the bullet into the lands. That will allow a full or near-full blow-out if the brass was annealed. In a gas gun, not being able to do that, a stiff charge and/or use of a heavy bullet will help to blow it out some - but may take a few firings to get to where it should be. Hydraulic dies are available to aid in this "blow out" prior to your first firing, as well.

 

[KMW 1954]

This is good advice. To add to that, taking fired range brass from different rifles will always result in differences in length, as measured for the shoulder, as well as differences in "work hardening" of the cases due to different amounts of stretch for the various guns they were fired in.

All of that is well understood. Have loaded and fired well over 4k 223 in the past 3 years and have never experienced this issue. I have never seen 3X fired brass shrink .007" just from being chambered into a rifle and not fired.

Ned, not a "measuring issue"as you might suggest. But you are correct, it should not be changing dimensions w/o being fired but it is.

 

[searcher]

I was always lead to believe that rifle brass stretches once fired unlike pistol brass that tends to shrink. All of this has now been fired twice so how does it get shorter?

This question got me to wondering IF that can happen. If brass (measured from base to shoulder) is way short when fired, is it conceivable that there was also not enough pressure in the load to blow out the case - and in fact push the case forward in the chamber, effectively pushing the shoulder back when it makes contact with the front of the chamber? I've never encountered this - but it does seem plausible under the right conditions of a light load, possibly exacerbated by slower burning powder. If the pressure was not high enough to seal the case mouth to the chamber, gas can get behind the case, potentially doing something like this. Mind you I don't know what the hell I'm talking about here. Just wondering if it could happen. Stranger things have happened...... Curious as to load you are using, ie powder type, weight and bullet.

 

[philip brousseau]

A couple of things I do that you might like to try. One is using the Redding competition shell holders. Let's me jam the shell holder against the bottom of the die. Helps eliminate sizing die set up problems. Another is to deprime a fired case. Put the spent primer part way back into the case, place the case in your rifles chamber and close the bolt. This will usually give you a too tight headspace length but reduce your cases headspace from that length until you get a proper fit. Sometimes we think we're not pushing the shoulder back too much but in actuality we are.

 

[KMW 1954]

Thanks, everyone. So no definitive answers for this so I am going to ditch this brass and move on as I now only have 3 weeks left to get a load developed before league starts. So that only means I've burned up 200 rounds of components to no avail.

 

[r bose]

Sounds to me like something's going on with your sizing dies, like for some reason, something might be very different about those cases that's catching in the die to cause this??? My fingers would be wearing out from measuring everything, every step of the way to see where exactly this is occurring.

I had a problem several years ago where sizing lube was building up inside the sizing die and without realizing what was going on, I was getting cases that went from 1-2 thou bump to 10-12 thou without ever moving/adjusting my sizing die. Drove me insane till I found the problem.

 

[KMW 1954]

Measure all while coming out of die and it has remained consistent.