223 at 1,000 yards

[swampshooter]

Is anyone consistently shooting respectable, competitive scores at 1,000 yds. with a 223. If so, do you know what barrel, bullet, twist, etc. that they are using.

 

[SDDasher]

Good question and I look forward to replies.....I did shoot a .223 Space Gun at Camp Perry at 1K back in the early 90's. The scores were neither respectable nor competitive.......but it was a blast shooting that 80 grain Sierra out of a 1x8 twist Krieger smithed by Frank White at Compass Lake Engineering.

 

[TonyR]

Search to archives for member Laurie and you will find a wealth of info. He shot his with great success to 1100 yards.

 

[boltman223]

Is anyone consistently shooting respectable, competitive scores at 1,000 yds. with a 223. If so, do you know what barrel, bullet, twist, etc. that they are using.

Yes there is, somebody here on Minnesota that won the regional long range match shooting 90 gr bullets. I don't know what twist, it must be 6.5 or 7 twist.

I shot my first 1000 yd match a couple weeks ago and this was only my 7th match in two years so my wind reading skills are not the best. I used 80 gr smk's and a 28" bartlein with an 8 twist. At 1000 yd line for the Palma I dropped 8 points and on Sunday for the fclass match I shot 710 (i don't know how respectable you consider that) and the winner shot a 748, just to give you an idea. anyways it can be done, you just have to read the wind better I believe.

I have heard and read of some other shooters really good with a 223 at 1000 too, I'm pretty sure they are shooting the 90's though.

 

[sbrabec]

30" Bartlein 1-7", Berger 90vld, .150+ free bore, LC brass fully prepped, wolf SRM primers, RE15 currently running them jammed in the lands. Velocity is about 2850. I was able to get about another 100 fps with MR2000 powder but it wasn't constant enough in my barrel. Barnard action, Jim See stock (Ryan Pierce currently sells them). Good luck as they can be very frustrating, but well worth it when you get them to shoot.

Scott

 

[Tempest]

Guy we shoot with locally does and he's won 1st F/TR before using .223. If I recall he said Berger 90g around 2,900.

He was using a Savage F/TR, not sure on barrel?

 

[skiutah02]

I'll be following this one.....

 

[XTR]

Nobody at the nationals was successfully running one in F-TR, even Laurie is running a 308 lately.

One guy on the Canadian team was running one (Bruce) and I know in the past Laurie has had success with them.

There have been people who have used them in High Power with success, but you're talking about a 2MOA 10-ring there.

At 1000 yards I've never heard of anyone running other than the Berger 90VLD with success, and they can be a PITA to get to shoot. Seven twist or faster, 30" tube, get them up to 2850 or so and maybe you can run, but I get the impression that when the wind blows, they seem to get blown further than the ballistics programs would indicate.

 

[clowdis]

Occasionally someone shoots a good match or two in good conditions with a .223. But I don't know of anyone that has stayed with it and remained competitive through all shooting conditions.

 

[Robbieg19]

I've shot a 223 at 1000 a few times. Savage action, Brux 30" 1:7.25 twist using Berger 90vld at 2850. It is great for 600 but like XTR said I think at 1000 it gets blown more than the charts say. I would prefer to shoot it at 1000 instead of the 308 (cheaper to shoot, less recoil to disturb setup) but I think if a 223 could be competitive at 1000 you would see a lot more of them at the big matches.

 

[Caliche Pit]

I have only competed with an iron sighted service rifle at 1000, never a bolt gun in 223. My last attempt was at Oak Ridge and resulted in a 194, 189 and a 179. As conditions grew, the sores reflected the inherent weakness of the 223 cartridge at 1000. Scores would or should be higher with a scope and longer barrel (higher velocity) on the one minute target from a sling. For F-Class, I don't consider the 223 to be able to get the job done against the better cartridges. When you go to a bolt gun and scope, you get into match rifle (any/any), and again will get beat up by better cartridges at 1000. The best, or most enjoyable competition application for the 223, in my opinion at 1000, is through, and against only other service rifles. The 80 Berger VLD and a stiff load of RE-15 will get you there from a 20" service rifle barrel. ( supersonic ).

 

[dragman]

I don't see how it can be done.
Take two shooters with the same ability at the same time and the .223 will loose unless it's in a wind tunnel. Can you do it sure, but you can do a lot of things that doesn't make them a good idea. Even the fastest .22 wild cats will struggle in the wind out too 1000 yards.

 

[XTR]

I don't see how it can be done.
Take two shooters with the same ability at the same time and the .223 will loose unless it's in a wind tunnel. Can you do it sure, but you can do a lot of things that doesn't make them a good idea. Even the fastest .22 wild cats will struggle in the wind out too 1000 yards.

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As far as the 90 VLD getting pushed much farther offline than its ballistic coefficient would indicate, that pretty much goes against the laws of physics and I'm highly skeptical as to whether that actually happens.

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I don't think that laws of physics are in question, but the inputs into the calculations. Hey, I could be completely out to lunch, one of these days I'm going to get three or 4 guys to get on the line at 1000 yds with their no wind zeros on and synchronize fire at targets and plot the actual windage for the Berger 185/200/215, and maybe we toss in the 90 too .

 

[dragman]

I don't see how it can be done.
Take two shooters with the same ability at the same time and the .223 will loose unless it's in a wind tunnel. Can you do it sure, but you can do a lot of things that doesn't make them a good idea. Even the fastest .22 wild cats will struggle in the wind out too 1000 yards.

So will a .308 pushing 155s in hands of all but the very best drivers, especially compared to something like a 215 Hybrid. The argument about "two shooters with identical ability" is meaningless. Such a thing simply doesn't exist in the real world. Different rifles, different relays, different wind conditions, different wind reading ability...the list goes on and on. It is extremely difficult to provide a truly equal side-by-side comparison. On top of which the sample size for the .223 in F-TR LR is exceedingly small. But that doesn't change the fact that a lot of matches have been won by extremely talented shooters using 155s. All I can tell you is that a 90 VLD going 2850 fps or so should be able to hold its own against any .308 bullet up to the 185 Juggernaut BC range. This is coming straight from people that have been using the .223 regularly in F-TR matches, so I have no reason whatsoever to doubt what they say. As far as the 90 VLD getting pushed much farther offline than its ballistic coefficient would indicate, that pretty much goes against the laws of physics and I'm highly skeptical as to whether that actually happens. The main problem in this debate is simply that there so few high level shooters using a .223 in LR relative to .308s that you hardly ever hear much about it. You really have to go looking if you want any definitive info at all, which obviously leads to a lot of doubt as to it's real world performance.

I didn't see in the OP anything about certain classes. Maybe in some disciplines maybe it can hang. But with bullet weight, speed, and caliber restrictions lifted the .22 can't compete end of story.

 

[swampshooter]

Yes, I was talking about F/TR at 1,000 yds. I can't imagine anyone using it, but didn't know if the 90's would make it feasible or not.

 

[mysticplayer]

Due to a shoulder injury, I decide to develop the 223/90 a few years back when I moved from F Open to FTR.

Paper ballistics indicated I had a fighting chance. Short range accuracy was superb. Did well out to 600m placing on the podium against 308's.

Then went to longer matches which also saw higher wind speeds. Things went very badly and I placed much lower then was typical.

It wasn't that the bullet was not accurate - with a lot of tuning, it is - it was that at LR in bumpy air, the bullet gets moved around a lot more.

Shooting beside 308 shooters using 185 and 200gr bullets, there was no doubt that when we misread a change, the 90's paid a heavier price. Same direction in both instance but more displacement for the 90.

Yes, it disagrees with what the BC math suggests but I have sent more then my fair share of bullets downrange and it shows on the target.

My thought is simply one of inertia. The lighter mass of the bullet is affected far more from localised gusts which are really hard to figure out. Think small car on the highway vs a big vehicle and being passed by a semi truck. The small car is jostled around more.

I wish I could have made it work and certainly tried (killed 5 barrels in the attempt) but the 308 is what I use now for LR FTR. Figured out ways to keep recoil at a minimum so my shoulder can handle the much bigger kick.

For mid range, I feel the 223 is a great option especially for those not interested in a lot of recoil.

For LR, I would recommend the 308 and a heavy bullet.

Jerry

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I started in F-TR with a .223, an AR-15 to boot, with a 26 inch Krieger. In 2008, I took 3rd place overall at TSRA Long Range shooting that rifle with 80gr bullets. The first day was a Palma format and I did really well at 800 and very well at 900, but 1000 was only good. The next day at 1000 yards I barely held up.

I reached High Master at mid-range with the .223 and won my share of matches; 300 to 600, the 80gr .223 is very competitive. At 800 yards it's still doing very well, after that it gets problematic. I reached Sharpshooter at LR with that rifle and was stuck there until I decided to go .308.

I still shoot the AR at some mid-range; using my .308 F-TR rifle at 300 would seem like cheating and I would learn nothing.

 

[mysticplayer]

Remember those 5 barrels???

There were many great days. Not just good days, I mean, ninja can't miss kind of days. Light to moderate steady air, bring it.

I compared to shooters using 185BT's and as the ballistic programs predicted, our drifts were awfully close. On some relays, I had LESS wind but then we would have to confirm no wind zeros just in case a rifle was biased one way or another.

The bullet flew with the drop and drift as the program predicted.. close enough to make sense. BUT how it reacted to turbulent air is the real problem

On a bumpy day or on a range with varying conditions, OH BOY, what a gong show.

Could it have been related to twist rate and RPM? Sure maybe but I tried an 8 twist just to see how it would go. Same thing. No shortage of bullets shooting superbly in 8 twist barrels in other cals

Could it be the shape? maybe????

A little over 2 years and buckets of bullets (both Berger and JLK 90 VLD type bullets). Same thing - steady air, even at high velocities, no major issue.

But in bumpy air, not a hope.

Shot in the 2012 US Nationals at Raton. That is some wonky air with lots of local conditions. When the air was swirling, ALL nearby shooters moved. We all moved in the same direction.

If they pushed to a 9, I was an 8. And so forth. I was bleeding points at a horrendous rate.

Whatever the physics, I have proven to myself in a myriad of ways and attempts, the 90gr VLD is not a 1000yd bullet under typical match conditions.

Mid range, you bet.

Ironically, I had far less issues with the Berger 90gr BT but that has been discontinued. I continue to use this as a LR rock and gong smacking bullet. Works very nicely.

I am much happier now with my 308 and heavy bullets at 1000yds. It goes as predicted with far fewer WTF's not related to trigger plunders.

Feels more like F open but with more drift.

Now to get my rankings out of the basement

Jerry

 

[Down South]

Remember those 5 barrels???

There were many great days. Not just good days, I mean, ninja can't miss kind of days. Light to moderate steady air, bring it.

I compared to shooters using 185BT's and as the ballistic programs predicted, our drifts were awfully close. On some relays, I had LESS wind but then we would have to confirm no wind zeros just in case a rifle was biased one way or another.

The bullet flew with the drop and drift as the program predicted.. close enough to make sense. BUT how it reacted to turbulent air is the real problem

On a bumpy day or on a range with varying conditions, OH BOY, what a gong show.

Could it have been related to twist rate and RPM? Sure maybe but I tried an 8 twist just to see how it would go. Same thing. No shortage of bullets shooting superbly in 8 twist barrels in other cals

Could it be the shape? maybe????

A little over 2 years and buckets of bullets (both Berger and JLK 90 VLD type bullets). Same thing - steady air, even at high velocities, no major issue.

But in bumpy air, not a hope.

Shot in the 2012 US Nationals at Raton. That is some wonky air with lots of local conditions. When the air was swirling, ALL nearby shooters moved. We all moved in the same direction.

If they pushed to a 9, I was an 8. And so forth. I was bleeding points at a horrendous rate.

Whatever the physics, I have proven to myself in a myriad of ways and attempts, the 90gr VLD is not a 1000yd bullet under typical match conditions.

Mid range, you bet.

Ironically, I had far less issues with the Berger 90gr BT but that has been discontinued. I continue to use this as a LR rock and gong smacking bullet. Works very nicely.

I am much happier now with my 308 and heavy bullets at 1000yds. It goes as predicted with far fewer WTF's not related to trigger plunders.

Feels more like F open but with more drift.

Now to get my rankings out of the basement

Jerry

Thanks for sharing your findings Jerry, I have always wondered about the 90s in .223 relative to what the ballistic charts say they should do at 1000.....Friend of mine shoots the 90s here at our local 600 yard range and his rifle is a laser (think hes running bout 2820 ftps give or take) but he hasn't shot it out at 1000 yet in a match......At 600 yards in a practice match a few weeks ago he shot a 595/600 24X with it in some tricky wind conditions.......For 600 yards its a sweet setup no doubt.

 

[mysticplayer]

What I love and know helps with consistency, LACK OF RECOIL. When tuned (yes, velocity around 2800fps is perfect), the 90's simply shoot and because you don't have to fight the bronco, you can stack bullet on bullet.

But there is most certainly something going on beyond 600m. I wish I knew cause it would be awesome to resolve.

Mid range, yes. LR, no.... unless you have very steady "flat" air.

Jerry