22 LR Bullet Sorting
- Thread starter Nick Caprinolo
- Start date
coldboreshot
Silver $$ Contributor
This is probably the best response within this thread. You don't need a gage (at any price), it is just as effective and range bras is "free".
I put on a RAS AR15 MKIII tuner and shot to find if this barrel could be tuned and shoot better. The grip grooves on the tuner have 8 around the adjustment barrel with 5+ revolutions. I used these as a coarse stop to choose points to shoot. Each stop was a 3 shot group with 40+ stops. The group size was measured by OD and not corrected. I found 8 nodes that stood out and the first 4 were curiously located at the beginning of the adjustments. The tuner was set at the end of the barrel and adjusted towards the receiver. Those with tuners know this first hand and maybe those who thought or wished they could do this...it's doable. It's totally cool to me....and a 22lr!!!
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Having "Fooled" with accurate rimfire rifles for 50 + years I have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds and can say from experience that they are very individual ANIMALS.
When In Va I had 25-50 75 + 100 targets with my bench on my back porch which was covered and several of us would have fun shoots @ various distances.
I owned a Sako P-72 HB that would shoot 1 hole groups @ 25 yds--wife was working @ Capital Records and would bring the sleeves that 78 RPM records that were set for trash as they had NO PRINTING on either side- we used these for targets with colored reinforcement for targets.
The Sako shot MANY,Many MANY 5 shot groups that U could put a UNFIRED 22lr in it and C NO DAYLITE a TRUE 1 hole group.
It did not fair as well @ 50 yds my 541's would out shoot it with .3 groups @ 75 that time was a 52 A speed lock and it had shot several 1/2" groups most were 3/4"
My K-22 was the most accurate @ 100 and my wife had shot several 3/4" --we would shoot Neco Wafers and she just would not miss
These rifles were shot side by side enough to know @ what distances they preformed the best by myself and the others
Jim
When In Va I had 25-50 75 + 100 targets with my bench on my back porch which was covered and several of us would have fun shoots @ various distances.
I owned a Sako P-72 HB that would shoot 1 hole groups @ 25 yds--wife was working @ Capital Records and would bring the sleeves that 78 RPM records that were set for trash as they had NO PRINTING on either side- we used these for targets with colored reinforcement for targets.
The Sako shot MANY,Many MANY 5 shot groups that U could put a UNFIRED 22lr in it and C NO DAYLITE a TRUE 1 hole group.
It did not fair as well @ 50 yds my 541's would out shoot it with .3 groups @ 75 that time was a 52 A speed lock and it had shot several 1/2" groups most were 3/4"
My K-22 was the most accurate @ 100 and my wife had shot several 3/4" --we would shoot Neco Wafers and she just would not miss
These rifles were shot side by side enough to know @ what distances they preformed the best by myself and the others
Jim
USMCDOC
Silver $$ Contributor
the way i look at it is.. sorting does not make your ammo more accurate.. instead.. it makes your flyers more consistent.
dc.fireman
Sling & Irons!
I shoot slightly less than 10k rounds of SK, Lapua, and Eley Tenex combined per year. I compete in NRA Conventional Smallbore Outdoor Prone, and on occasion, ISSF 50M prone. My preference, and the general preference of other competitors within the disciplines are to test by lot, trying to gain ammunition that is of a consistent velocity. The USAMU did this for many many years - I do not know if they still do. My preference was for ammunition that had an average velocity of 1055 - 1060 fps., as that grouped well in both of my rifles.
SK Standard Plus/Wolf Match Target were both made by SK, which was at one time owned by Lapua. If you examine the headstamp on all three, this will become obvious. All SK was made at the same time, and then lot tested. The most consistent became SK Rifle Match or Wolf Match Extra. The least consistent became SK Standard/Wolf Match Target.
My preference is to use SK Standard Plus for practice, Eley Match Black for 50 yd/50M competition, and Eley Tenex (Red) for 100 yd. competition. Eley has a lot test result database for each of their lots produced over the last 10 years. You visit their website, input your lot no.s into the blank field and they will show you the 10 shot test group that resulted from that particular lot. The group size and velocity consistency determine whether a specific lot is Match(Black) or Tenex (Red).
Many competitors used to try and find Eley lots that had been manufactured on certain machines (numbered 1-5). Eley recommended against this, as they stated that the machines were rebuilt from time to time, and that alone would change the characteristics of the ammunition.
Good luck and safe travels this weekend @USMCDOC - I wish my prior commitment didn't prevent me from shooting the match with you this weekend.
-tc
USMCDOC
Silver $$ Contributor
nice post and thank you
boltman13
Gold $$ Contributor
All of my 22LR competition is done outdoors at a Range noted for tricky winds. I have shot at both 50 and 100 yards only fore score, not group size. Even with wind flags I know some of my flyers are due to poor wind reads, or sudden wind changes. My Walther target rifle with a T36X Weaver scope is capable of shooting possabel scores at 50 yards and 95% or higher at 100. I bought a magic brick of SK Match and it was very accurate. The next brick was no where near as accurate. I tried weight sorting 100 rounds, but only to the closest 0.1 grs. That helped but I still got what I thought was unexpected vertical at 100 yards. To be fair I could have had vertical from misjudging head wind effect, but I felt I was on top of that. I then tried RWS50 with outstanding results thru two different bricks so far. I am considering adding a tuner to get the last bit of accuracy, but wonder if it would add much to my scores outside in the wind. I would love to get access to an indoor 50 yard range and bench so I could test the pure accuracy of different ammunition and any improvement is same with weight sorting or rim thickness measuring, but no such range is available locally.
Federal bench snap gage. Piece of O1 and 15 minutes later,a rim sorter. Shakey pic but you can see the rim under the D.I. stem. This gage makes short work of sorting because of how effortless the "zeroing" .There's a lock screw under the "table" that allows the thumbscrew to adj to 0.
Using in a minty 541-S for squirrels.
Using in a minty 541-S for squirrels.
I tried separating by weight and rim thickness and found absolutely no improvement when using Federal Champion bulk ammo. It still shot patterns instead of groups. A total waste of time!
If you want good groups, best to start with good ammo!
If you want good groups, best to start with good ammo!
Nick Caprinolo
Gold $$ Contributor
Nick
Any recipe is only as good as it's ingredients and the care you put into the preparation.
Dad
Any recipe is only as good as it's ingredients and the care you put into the preparation.
Dad
dc.fireman
Sling & Irons!
Here is what happens when you focus on shot execution. I don't spend time sorting, or weighing smallbore ammunition. As stated before, I use SK Standard Plus for practice, and Eley Match in competition at 50 yards, and Eley Tenex in competition at 50M & 100Y. Back when Eley would publish their velocities on the outside of the boxes, I looked for ammunition in the 1050-1060 fps range, as it shot well in three of my competition rifles.
These are 5 shot groups, which replicate what is required per bull in competition (minus the use of a backer target). The top target was fired with my original Anschutz 'X' gun, and iron sights in the prone position. The lower two were fired with my Anschutz 1811 prone gun, and a Leupold 20x scope. The target is the standard NRA A-23 50 yard Smallbore Rifle Target, that I use for warm-up, before switching to the A-51 International target:
I am a firm believer in investing time and energy where it makes the greatest difference - practicing position, sight alignment, breathing, and trigger control & follow through.
These are 5 shot groups, which replicate what is required per bull in competition (minus the use of a backer target). The top target was fired with my original Anschutz 'X' gun, and iron sights in the prone position. The lower two were fired with my Anschutz 1811 prone gun, and a Leupold 20x scope. The target is the standard NRA A-23 50 yard Smallbore Rifle Target, that I use for warm-up, before switching to the A-51 International target:
I am a firm believer in investing time and energy where it makes the greatest difference - practicing position, sight alignment, breathing, and trigger control & follow through.
Hello (from Germany). Here is my experience.
1.) Sorting .22LR by rim thickness for accuracy is not really helpful.
2.) The measurement can be incorrect depending on the Rim inclination.
1.) Sorting .22LR by rim thickness for accuracy is not really helpful.
2.) The measurement can be incorrect depending on the Rim inclination.
1Merlin
Silver $$ Contributor
Outstanding observation with a very convincing visual reference added. Thank You.
Wonderful first post. Welcome to the Forums!
Sorry for the time difference. When America is still asleep, I'm already at work ;-)
Bob, it's ok, you can do it, the main thing is that you feel good. Unfortunately, it is not possible to differentiate the weights of the individual components.
Sorry for the information in grams.
Most Olympic Target or Benchrest Shooters in Europe that I know don't do it. They do ammunition tests with the most expensive brands. When sorting then there are other more important factors that should possibly sort. Unfortunately, you can't see all things beforehand.
One example of many: hidden bullet flaw.
And now, thinking about?
Bob, it's ok, you can do it, the main thing is that you feel good. Unfortunately, it is not possible to differentiate the weights of the individual components.
Sorry for the information in grams.
Most Olympic Target or Benchrest Shooters in Europe that I know don't do it. They do ammunition tests with the most expensive brands. When sorting then there are other more important factors that should possibly sort. Unfortunately, you can't see all things beforehand.
One example of many: hidden bullet flaw.
And now, thinking about?
Quite a few years ago I tried rim sorting using the Neil Jones gauge. It's been so long, I don't remember all the details; sorting works to an extent with the cheaper ammo, but the process is incredibly tedious and time consuming for most normal people. Spend a little more and get better ammo to begin with and you won't need to sort it.
There's a comprehensive article (maybe too comprehensive) on rim sorting with a Neil Jones gauge in the 2009 GUN DIGEST.
There's a comprehensive article (maybe too comprehensive) on rim sorting with a Neil Jones gauge in the 2009 GUN DIGEST.
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rkittine
Gold $$ Contributor
I don't do it on cheap .22 ammo to try to make it work, but do sort as stated on ammo AFTER I have tested lots in my rifles of Tenex, Lapua etc. until I find a lot that works best and that there was plenty of back up stock to order. Once ordered, though I then sort to try to make the best even better. I sort by rim thickness first as I THINK that might be where the biggest fluctuation in component weight might be, but I might be wrong about that.
Bob
Bob
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