22-3000 Lovell
- Thread starter Skunce
- Start date
my first center fire was a highwall in 2r lovell with a 24 inch piffer bbl.
The loads i used for the Sisk 50gr sp was 10 gr of 4227, as i remember (66 years ago) and the longest shot i made was a 300 yd.
it would shoot consistantly 3/4 inch at 100 with an old weaver scope.
i am absolutely sure the 4227 of today is not the same as in 1946 so dont hold me to that load.
i have an old old old old loading manual by Lyman that had a lot of stuff in ti on the 2r if i can find it i will post the page, however the powders are not the same today
Bob
The loads i used for the Sisk 50gr sp was 10 gr of 4227, as i remember (66 years ago) and the longest shot i made was a 300 yd.
it would shoot consistantly 3/4 inch at 100 with an old weaver scope.
i am absolutely sure the 4227 of today is not the same as in 1946 so dont hold me to that load.
i have an old old old old loading manual by Lyman that had a lot of stuff in ti on the 2r if i can find it i will post the page, however the powders are not the same today
Bob
Basically just fill the case with 4198, leaving room to seat the bullet without compressing the powder. Depending on the make of the case, this will likely be 13-14 grains. The reason for improving the case to the"2R" form and then on to the "Maximum Lovell" form was to make room for more 4198. In my experience 4227 is a bit rougher on brass (head separation) especially when using older cases. Disclaimer, check with certified references....work up from lighter loads..etc etc.
What I have posted on other sites is as follows for those interested...
The "22-3000" (or 22 Lovell) was a wildcat round developed by an American named Hervey (not Harvey) Lovell, about 1934. He accomplished this by taking the "25-20 Single Shot" case which is a bit longer than the regular 25-20 Win case and necked it down with a fairly smooth shoulder to .22 caliber. A bit quicker than the "Hornet", and inherently accurate; it became a common wildcat caliber in the USA and Canada.
In 1937, Harvey (yes Harvey) Donaldson with the help of M. Risley doing the reamer work, created the first improved form of the 22-3000 which became known as the "2R Lovell". The "2R" designation was due to the fact that it was the "2nd reamer" made by Risley that was utilized. Some references to this cartridge call it the 2R Donaldson further confusing the topic. The 2R Lovell has been described as the most popular .22 wildcat ever designed. J. B. Smith and Griffin & Howe of the USA both had factory runs of this ammunition made. (If memory serves me right, contracted to Winchester) . The original cases made from 25-20 SS (up to about 1935 then discontinued) are thin and "incipient head separation" is common and not necessarily signs of excessive high pressure. Later cases from Smith or G&H are much stronger.
The Lovell story does not end there, as various gunsmiths pushed the case development further by moving the shoulder forward & steepening it's angle to gain case capacity. This was known as the "Maximum Lovell"
Many campained Winchester and Remington for the 2R Lovell to be domesticated as a factory cartridge, WW2 came along and such interests obviously hit the backburner. Then in 1950 Remington brought out the 222 which was similar to the Lovell cartridges, only slightly larger and rimless. It is my understanding that the 222 was drawn on its own unique and new brass coin. This pretty much spelled a quick death to the Lovell series and Remington had no royalties or buy-outs to worry about. (Imagine the royalties on the 222/222Mag/and 223 line !!)
Disclaimers on any information following, as it is up to you to verify.
About 14.0 -14.5 grains of 4198 is the maximum you will be able to fit in a case without compression. Do NOT compress load !!! .
Also 4227 was a popular choice but as I got over 13.5 grains and more than 2600fps with 45 grain bullets the heads separated from my old 25-20SS cases nearly every round. These cases are not cheap either.
A fine modern choice that works well in my 2R Lovell is 12.5 to 13.0 grains of Hodgdon's Lil Gun. Again with 45 grain bullets.
As for cases, if you cannot sourse 25-20SS to convert, then try Rocky Mountain Cartridges. Great people who will turn you nicely boxed batches of 20. Although not drawn brass, I've had great success with their products including 2R Lovell.
Custom dies and reloading are of course a must and I went as far as to order a neck collet die from Lee's to minimize working of the brass.
I've gathered quite a bit of data from period publications such as American Rifleman, etc and even have a reproduction of a booklet produced in 1938 by B.L. Smith. Most of this I have compiled onto CD and offer it to those interested for the price of postage and blank CD (totally non-profit for sure).
My personal rifle in 2R Lovell is a Custom Model 8 BSA Martini which I thoroughly enjoy.
Cheers
Jaguar/TheCounty
What I have posted on other sites is as follows for those interested...
The "22-3000" (or 22 Lovell) was a wildcat round developed by an American named Hervey (not Harvey) Lovell, about 1934. He accomplished this by taking the "25-20 Single Shot" case which is a bit longer than the regular 25-20 Win case and necked it down with a fairly smooth shoulder to .22 caliber. A bit quicker than the "Hornet", and inherently accurate; it became a common wildcat caliber in the USA and Canada.
In 1937, Harvey (yes Harvey) Donaldson with the help of M. Risley doing the reamer work, created the first improved form of the 22-3000 which became known as the "2R Lovell". The "2R" designation was due to the fact that it was the "2nd reamer" made by Risley that was utilized. Some references to this cartridge call it the 2R Donaldson further confusing the topic. The 2R Lovell has been described as the most popular .22 wildcat ever designed. J. B. Smith and Griffin & Howe of the USA both had factory runs of this ammunition made. (If memory serves me right, contracted to Winchester) . The original cases made from 25-20 SS (up to about 1935 then discontinued) are thin and "incipient head separation" is common and not necessarily signs of excessive high pressure. Later cases from Smith or G&H are much stronger.
The Lovell story does not end there, as various gunsmiths pushed the case development further by moving the shoulder forward & steepening it's angle to gain case capacity. This was known as the "Maximum Lovell"
Many campained Winchester and Remington for the 2R Lovell to be domesticated as a factory cartridge, WW2 came along and such interests obviously hit the backburner. Then in 1950 Remington brought out the 222 which was similar to the Lovell cartridges, only slightly larger and rimless. It is my understanding that the 222 was drawn on its own unique and new brass coin. This pretty much spelled a quick death to the Lovell series and Remington had no royalties or buy-outs to worry about. (Imagine the royalties on the 222/222Mag/and 223 line !!)
Disclaimers on any information following, as it is up to you to verify.
About 14.0 -14.5 grains of 4198 is the maximum you will be able to fit in a case without compression. Do NOT compress load !!! .
Also 4227 was a popular choice but as I got over 13.5 grains and more than 2600fps with 45 grain bullets the heads separated from my old 25-20SS cases nearly every round. These cases are not cheap either.
A fine modern choice that works well in my 2R Lovell is 12.5 to 13.0 grains of Hodgdon's Lil Gun. Again with 45 grain bullets.
As for cases, if you cannot sourse 25-20SS to convert, then try Rocky Mountain Cartridges. Great people who will turn you nicely boxed batches of 20. Although not drawn brass, I've had great success with their products including 2R Lovell.
Custom dies and reloading are of course a must and I went as far as to order a neck collet die from Lee's to minimize working of the brass.
I've gathered quite a bit of data from period publications such as American Rifleman, etc and even have a reproduction of a booklet produced in 1938 by B.L. Smith. Most of this I have compiled onto CD and offer it to those interested for the price of postage and blank CD (totally non-profit for sure).
My personal rifle in 2R Lovell is a Custom Model 8 BSA Martini which I thoroughly enjoy.
Cheers
Jaguar/TheCounty
thecountry, you bring back many memories, my cases were the G&H with a few marked 22-3000,
i had my rifle in the mid 1940's until about 1954 when all the cases i had were just about gone and i could not find any new one in my area. as you my remember that was the end of WWII AND Korea and reloading suff was scarce.
The other problem i had was bullets. none of the stores near had much to choose from in .224 as they carried .30 cal mostly. i did keep a decent supply of Sisk 50sp until they ran out then i had to go cast.
The Lyman gas check Keith style 47gr mold, single cavity was my fall back, i used them _wheel weights- and 4227 in the 9gr range for years.
i finally gave up on the case problem and rechambered to the Mashburn 219 zipper as brass was easy to get and bullets were beginning to show up on store shelves.
Bob
i had my rifle in the mid 1940's until about 1954 when all the cases i had were just about gone and i could not find any new one in my area. as you my remember that was the end of WWII AND Korea and reloading suff was scarce.
The other problem i had was bullets. none of the stores near had much to choose from in .224 as they carried .30 cal mostly. i did keep a decent supply of Sisk 50sp until they ran out then i had to go cast.
The Lyman gas check Keith style 47gr mold, single cavity was my fall back, i used them _wheel weights- and 4227 in the 9gr range for years.
i finally gave up on the case problem and rechambered to the Mashburn 219 zipper as brass was easy to get and bullets were beginning to show up on store shelves.
Bob
My father gave me his 22R2 Lovell and a reloading manual. I will see what it has in it for the 22-3000.
Also, I have been told that the Lovell brass gets real brittle therefore I have not made any new loads for it.
The brass I have is at least 40 years old. Where can I get "NEW" brass and is the 25-20 single shot still available?
Thanks
Also, I have been told that the Lovell brass gets real brittle therefore I have not made any new loads for it.
The brass I have is at least 40 years old. Where can I get "NEW" brass and is the 25-20 single shot still available?
Thanks
Skunce
Gold $$ Contributor
mrbofus, I'm just getting back to this project since my dies finally arrived. I'm planning on reforming new Jamison or Bertram brass. Thank you to all of you who took time to reply to my post. The info that you all provided will be a great help getting me started. The rifle is a Stevens 44 1/2 and has been re-barreled with a barrel from a Winchester 52. Would the correct bullets for this barrel be .223" diameter?
most 22 lr bbls are either 222, i would be very careful using that bbl, only the jacketed 45 hornet in .223 may work, definately go cast, the lyman molds are great in 22 with many to choose from the velocity for the case is slow enough that the 225438 would be my choice. sized 223 and gas checked.;
Bob
Bob
OK, it has been nearly three years since the last post, but here goes.
My father (1910 - 1982) described t me a gun he had built up. He told me it was chambered in .22-3000, but I don't know whether it was the original or the R2 version. Anyway, there can't be another rifle like it.
It had a falling block action with a double-set trigger. Winchester 1885 Short Wall? No way to know; I'm sure there are other candidates. He liked octagonal barrels and had one, but it wasn't the rifle's original barrel. So he took it to a master gunsmith, who turned a taper on the original barrel and then bored the octagonal barrel in the same taper and brazed them together. My dad said that if you struck it with a mallet it would ring like a bell. This may have been the same gunsmith who chambered the rifle for .22-3000. He also had a 20x target scope mounted to the receiver. It may have been a Unertl, as he once told me he had one and admired it.
Anyway, if anyone comes across a rifle that fits this description, I would very much like to hear of it.
My father (1910 - 1982) described t me a gun he had built up. He told me it was chambered in .22-3000, but I don't know whether it was the original or the R2 version. Anyway, there can't be another rifle like it.
It had a falling block action with a double-set trigger. Winchester 1885 Short Wall? No way to know; I'm sure there are other candidates. He liked octagonal barrels and had one, but it wasn't the rifle's original barrel. So he took it to a master gunsmith, who turned a taper on the original barrel and then bored the octagonal barrel in the same taper and brazed them together. My dad said that if you struck it with a mallet it would ring like a bell. This may have been the same gunsmith who chambered the rifle for .22-3000. He also had a 20x target scope mounted to the receiver. It may have been a Unertl, as he once told me he had one and admired it.
Anyway, if anyone comes across a rifle that fits this description, I would very much like to hear of it.
KMart
Gold $$ Contributor
At my age, 2013 seems like it was only 3 years ago. But, it really wasn't.
And, welcome to the forum.
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
I had a bunch of new G&H 22-3000 brass and 2R Lovell. I donated the brass to a shooter, but I still have the dies. I had an old mauser built by Hervey Lovell for JP McClamment in Texas City, Tx. JP was a stockmaker. It was chambered in 22Varminter. John Holliger of White Oak Armament is the proud owner at this time. I gave John the correspondence between Hervey and JP.
you can make it out of 25 20 stevens single shot
pirate ammo
Guaranteed to take the wind out of their sails
Only if he has the Talisman.
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